Ubuntu is giving up on Mir and jumps on the Wayland bandwagon / create Wayland bug-tracker ticket for TDE
6 Apr
2017
6 Apr
'17
12:15 a.m.
Here's the news: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/
ubuntu-unity-is-dead-desktop-will-switch-back-to-gnome-next-year/
I guess this would be essential for increasing Wayland adoption. And when
it comes to Wayland and the TDE, could you create a bug-tracker ticket so
that we can track progress (even if very slow) for TDE's Wayland support,
please?
6 Apr
6 Apr
5:38 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Ubuntu is giving up on Mir and jumps on the Wayland bandwagon / create Wayland bug-tracker ticket for TDE
Am Donnerstag, 6. April 2017 schrieb Jan Kleks:
Here's the news:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/
ubuntu-unity-is-dead-desktop-will-switch-back-to-gnome-next-year/
I guess this would be essential for increasing Wayland adoption. And when
it comes to Wayland and the TDE, could you create a bug-tracker ticket so
that we can track progress (even if very slow) for TDE's Wayland support,
please?
It may be m ignorance, but I have never met Wayland in the wild. What does it do, that X11
does not?
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
11:39 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Ubuntu is giving up on Mir and jumps on the Wayland bandwagon / create Wayland bug-tracker ticket for TDE
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 07:38:03 +0200
"Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" <office(a)klepp.biz> wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 6. April 2017 schrieb Jan Kleks:
It's easier for developers to maintain and extend. X11 is a mass of crufty old
code, vestigial organs whose functions have been taken over by other programs,
and half-baked extensions, or so I'm told. It likely has multiple security holes
hidden in the less-used codepaths.
For 90% of users, Wayland shouldn't make much difference. The other 10%
are going to have to find substitutes for features like display forwarding that
X does but Wayland doesn't (and never will). Despite this, Wayland is likely
to be adopted by all distros eventually because no one wants to maintain X
anymore.
Porting TDE to Wayland will likely require some work on QT3 first. Then on
the window manager. I'm not sure if it affects other components.
E. Liddell
Here's the news:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/
ubuntu-unity-is-dead-desktop-will-switch-back-to-gnome-next-year/
I guess this would be essential for increasing Wayland adoption. And when
it comes to Wayland and the TDE, could you create a bug-tracker ticket so
that we can track progress (even if very slow) for TDE's Wayland support,
please?
It may be m ignorance, but I have never met Wayland in the wild. What does it do, that
X11 does not? 
3:21 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Ubuntu is giving up on Mir and jumps on the Wayland bandwagon / create Wayland bug-tracker ticket for TDE
On Thursday 06 April 2017 07:39:59 E. Liddell wrote:
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 07:38:03 +0200
"Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" <office(a)klepp.biz> wrote:
If this "Wayland" can't do x11 forwarding and never will, its dead in the
water and I'll torpedo it to sink it out of its misery so it can't
interfere with my daily use. X11Forwarding is something I use here at
the coyote.den many times a day, sometimes a given link remains in use
for several days at a time when I am developing the next module of gcode
to carve the next part.
X11Forwarding is the single, most useful feature of X11. Wayland had
better grow some forwarding as usable as the x11 version it if it wants
any adoption at all out here in the real world. ATM, and its my normal
usage here, I have 5 "ssh -Y $usr@machine" links open right now and 4
minimum, on a 24/7/365.25 basis.
Am Donnerstag, 6. April 2017 schrieb Jan Kleks:
It's easier for developers to maintain and extend. X11 is a mass of
crufty old code, vestigial organs whose functions have been taken over
by other programs, and half-baked extensions, or so I'm told. It
likely has multiple security holes hidden in the less-used codepaths.
For 90% of users, Wayland shouldn't make much difference. The other
10% are going to have to find substitutes for features like display
forwarding that X does but Wayland doesn't (and never will). Despite
this, Wayland is likely to be adopted by all distros eventually
because no one wants to maintain X anymore. Here's the news:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/
ubuntu-unity-is-dead-desktop-will-switch-back-to-gnome-next-year/
I guess this would be essential for increasing Wayland adoption.
And when it comes to Wayland and the TDE, could you create a
bug-tracker ticket so that we can track progress (even if very
slow) for TDE's Wayland support, please?
It may be m ignorance, but I have never met Wayland in the wild.
What does it do, that X11 does not? Porting TDE to Wayland will likely require some work
on QT3 first.
Then on the window manager. I'm not sure if it affects other
components.
E. Liddell
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
11:48 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Ubuntu is giving up on Mir and jumps on the Wayland bandwagon / create Wayland bug-tracker ticket for TDE
You have not met it because it is still in development. Just watch "The
Real Story Behind Wayland and X" to learn more about the Wayland vs X
issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44
2017-04-06 7:38 GMT+02:00 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp <office(a)klepp.biz>iz>:
Am Donnerstag, 6. April 2017 schrieb Jan Kleks:
Here's the news:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/
ubuntu-unity-is-dead-desktop-will-switch-back-to-gnome-next-year/
I guess this would be essential for increasing Wayland adoption. And when
it comes to Wayland and the TDE, could you create a bug-tracker ticket so
that we can track progress (even if very slow) for TDE's Wayland support,
please?
It may be m ignorance, but I have never met Wayland in the wild. What does
it do, that X11 does not?
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing
with the NSA, CIA ...
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1:08 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Ubuntu is giving up on Mir and jumps on the Wayland bandwagon / create Wayland bug-tracker ticket for TDE
Am Donnerstag, 6. April 2017 schrieb Jan Kleks:
You have not met it because it is still in
development. Just watch "The
Real Story Behind Wayland and X" to learn more about the Wayland vs X
issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44
Well, that was 4 years ago. I would not hold my breath till it's actually usable.
Anyway, Wayland is a protocol, not a server. I bet there will be a "X11 emulation
layer" when Waylang will be ready to use.
Nik
2017-04-06 7:38 GMT+02:00 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp <office(a)klepp.biz>iz>:
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
Am Donnerstag, 6. April 2017 schrieb Jan Kleks:
Here's the news:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/
ubuntu-unity-is-dead-desktop-will-switch-back-to-gnome-next-year/
I guess this would be essential for increasing Wayland adoption. And when
it comes to Wayland and the TDE, could you create a bug-tracker ticket so
that we can track progress (even if very slow) for TDE's Wayland support,
please?
It may be m ignorance, but I have never met Wayland in the wild. What does
it do, that X11 does not?
Nik
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing
with the NSA, CIA ...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: trinity-users-unsubscribe@
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6:39 p.m.
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Well, that was 4 years ago. I would not hold my breath
till it's actually
usable.
Anyway, Wayland is a protocol, not a server. I bet there will be a "X11
emulation layer" when Waylang will be ready to use.
Besides half of the arguments are invalid in this presentation and I am
wondering what kind of system this guy is running to have such bad
experience. While technically it is correct and what they did deserves
respect, it is a bit disproportionate. I wouldn't say it's sooo bad as
pictured in the presentation.
BTW I heard about Wayland few years ago when there was kind of hype in the
community, but not tracked it further.
I am amazed in what is going on with KDE, X and many other projects, where
people, who thing they know and can better are trying to live out their
view of the world. At the end nothing works. At least Gnome did this like
about 15 years ago, so that even if stupid, it is one of the lightest and
easiest environments.
I am sure some of those people and projects will fail and some of them will
bring it to a successfull end. Lets wait and see where it will go.
I started using TDE exactly because I do not like replacing something ugly
and working for something cool and nice but not working. My choice is to
have a stable and working system nothing more and nothing less.
When Wayland grows up, I don't mind giving it a chance. I'm sure the people
who are behind know what they are doing and why, so it will be a matter of
time and the TDE philosophy is not to rush for new stuff.
In fact it is pretty hard to keep the project up to date
regards
8 Apr
8 Apr
8:04 a.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Re: Ubuntu is giving up on Mir and jumps on the Wayland bandwagon / create Wayland bug-tracker ticket for TDE
On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 2:39 PM, deloptes <deloptes(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I am amazed in what is going on with KDE, X and many
other projects, where
people, who thing they know and can better are trying to live out their
view of the world. At the end nothing works. At least Gnome did this like
about 15 years ago, so that even if stupid, it is one of the lightest and
easiest environments.
You are kidding, right? What about the whole Gnome 3 mess with the
Mate & Cinnamon forks(like TDE)? Granted, it wasn't as messy as KDE4,
but they still decided to do something similar.
I am sure some of those people and projects will fail
and some of them will
bring it to a successfull end. Lets wait and see where it will go.
I started using TDE exactly because I do not like replacing something ugly
and working for something cool and nice but not working. My choice is to
have a stable and working system nothing more and nothing less.
When Wayland grows up, I don't mind giving it a chance. I'm sure the people
who are behind know what they are doing and why, so it will be a matter of
time and the TDE philosophy is not to rush for new stuff.
In fact it is pretty hard to keep the project up to date
The biggest problems are:
1. Using an update/new version to force new & unwanted
features.(Android and iOS are famous for this)
2. Programmers preferring to code new stuff over fixing problems.
3. Programmers that don't use what they code for real production work.
I used KDE3 on openSUSE untill TDE become a better alternative.
Unfortunately, most people aren't very tech-savy and just get over it
and use it. Windows 10 is a prime example. Force people to "upgrade"
by making it difficult to not do it. I remember one of the arguments
on the openSUSE lists about the KDE4 instabilities was that you needed
to use the update repo over the standard to get the newer fixes. When
I pointed out that a lot of people probably didn't have a clue how to
do that, it was met with disbelief.
That and when KDE4 was being pushed out I was told repeatedly to get
with the future and get over it. Just like being told I need to
upgrade my computer to meet what they feel I should use. My main
laptop is a circa 2006 thinkpad, and before this I used a P3 Thinkpad
T30p till 2011.
So much is being pushed on users because it's the "future" like
systemd, the "semantic desktop"(WTF is that and WHY DO I NEED IT???? -
still don't get it), beagle(which is dead), avahi(utterly useless),
etc, etc.
There's a lot of things that can be fixed in the Linux
ecosystem(removing dependencies or just including them in the
program), duplication of work(each distro customizes firefox and
supports multiple versions).....I could go on. But what happens is
someone wants to replace something that works and expects everyone to
jump on the bus and use it regardless of whether it A. works, and B.
offers something useful to the user not just the programmer.
Anyway, rant off.
11:35 a.m.
Larry Stotler wrote:
Yes, but it worked from the start compared to KDE4 (or at least it became
usable/mature much faster), so that ubuntu adopted it as default DE. And
last but not least, if you want to code an UI fast (and dirty), you can do
it easier in GTK. Qt5 is definitely a competitor and I see future for
Wayland and Qt5 especially on mobile devices.
I completely agree here, and this is why I spent time using and improving
TDE.
I am amazed in
what is going on with KDE, X and many other projects,
where people, who thing they know and can better are trying to live out
their view of the world. At the end nothing works. At least Gnome did
this like about 15 years ago, so that even if stupid, it is one of the
lightest and easiest environments.
You are kidding, right? What about the whole Gnome 3 mess with the
Mate & Cinnamon forks(like TDE)? Granted, it wasn't as messy as KDE4,
but they still decided to do something similar.
I am sure some
of those people and projects will fail and some of them
will bring it to a successfull end. Lets wait and see where it will go.
I started using TDE exactly because I do not like replacing something
ugly and working for something cool and nice but not working. My choice
is to have a stable and working system nothing more and nothing less.
When Wayland grows up, I don't mind giving it a chance. I'm sure the
people who are behind know what they are doing and why, so it will be a
matter of time and the TDE philosophy is not to rush for new stuff.
In fact it is pretty hard to keep the project up to date
The biggest problems are:
1. Using an update/new version to force new & unwanted
features.(Android and iOS are famous for this)
2. Programmers preferring to code new stuff over fixing problems.
3. Programmers that don't use what they code for real production work.
I used KDE3 on openSUSE untill TDE become a better
alternative.
Unfortunately, most people aren't very tech-savy and just get over it
and use it. Windows 10 is a prime example. Force people to "upgrade"
by making it difficult to not do it. I remember one of the arguments
on the openSUSE lists about the KDE4 instabilities was that you needed
to use the update repo over the standard to get the newer fixes. When
I pointed out that a lot of people probably didn't have a clue how to
do that, it was met with disbelief.
That and when KDE4 was being pushed out I was told repeatedly to get
with the future and get over it. Just like being told I need to
upgrade my computer to meet what they feel I should use. My main
laptop is a circa 2006 thinkpad, and before this I used a P3 Thinkpad
T30p till 2011.
Yes, I had same experience back then until I understood, that with the
philosophy they follow, they will never get a really stable environment.
Somehow recently it became usable in broader meaning - 6y later!
So much is being pushed on users because it's the
"future" like
systemd, the "semantic desktop"(WTF is that and WHY DO I NEED IT???? -
still don't get it), beagle(which is dead), avahi(utterly useless),
etc, etc.
Exactly my problem as well. I feel being forced to be beta tester of
someones prove of concept.
There's a lot of things that can be fixed in the
Linux
ecosystem(removing dependencies or just including them in the
program), duplication of work(each distro customizes firefox and
supports multiple versions).....I could go on. But what happens is
someone wants to replace something that works and expects everyone to
jump on the bus and use it regardless of whether it A. works, and B.
offers something useful to the user not just the programmer.
Exactly my problem as well. In case of Wayland - again - I see future in
mobile world, where things are developing at the moment and it is really a
meaningful replacement of X there. As for TDE I am not quite sure that A.
it is doable and B. it would make sense/rectify the time invested.
TDE developers, as you mentioned above, are focused on maintaining the
working code. New things get developed only in case it is really needed.
When I look at the bug list ... it is more than enough.
regards
6 Apr
6 Apr
11:13 p.m.
New subject: [trinity-users] Ubuntu is giving up on Mir and jumps on the Wayland bandwagon / create Wayland bug-tracker ticket for TDE
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 15:08:28 +0200
"Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" <office(a)klepp.biz> wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 6. April 2017 schrieb Jan Kleks:
By my understanding, it's usable now if your distro supports it and you don't
expect too much of it. Packages are widely available. The few distros that
have played with the idea of making it the default mostly seem to back out
before making a release, though.
You have not met it because it is still in
development. Just watch "The
Real Story Behind Wayland and X" to learn more about the Wayland vs X
issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44
Well, that was 4 years ago. I would not hold my breath till it's actually usable.
Anyway, Wayland is a protocol, not a server. I bet
there will be a "X11
emulation layer" when Waylang will be ready to use.
Key search term: xwayland ( https://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html ).
E. Liddell
2581
days inactive
2583
days old
9 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
deloptes -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
E. Liddell -
Gene Heskett -
Jan Kleks -
Larry Stotler