On Friday 11 June 2021 02:12:48 pm dep wrote:

Nor is there any place I can find a simple file that contains all the entries in one's KMenu, such that one might rearrange them by hand. It is surely stored someplace, but I cannot find it. It ought to be able to be opened in a spreadsheet such that the order could be altered with a click.

Okay, this will suck...

- Open a command prompt - Do nothing for more than 1 minute... - Edit something in KMenu - Then run these two commands

# find / -newerct $(date +%Y-%m-%d -d '1 min ago') -type f # find / -newermt $(date +%Y-%m-%d -d '1 min ago') -type f

The first does "Change" time, the second does "Create" time.

And you *should*! be able to find where KMenu stores it changes in...

Best, Michael

PS: You didn't do the 'cd' the last time I wrote something like this, so it didn't work...

On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 15:45:12 -0500 Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote:

On Friday 11 June 2021 02:12:48 pm dep wrote:

...

Nor is there any place I can find a simple file that contains all the entries in one's KMenu, such that one might rearrange them by hand. It is surely stored someplace, but I cannot find it. It ought to be able to be opened in a spreadsheet such that the order could be altered with a click.

Okay, this will suck...

• Open a command prompt
• Do nothing for more than 1 minute...
• Edit something in KMenu
• Then run these two commands

# find / -newerct $(date +%Y-%m-%d -d '1 min ago') -type f # find / -newermt $(date +%Y-%m-%d -d '1 min ago') -type f

The first does "Change" time, the second does "Create" time.

And you *should*! be able to find where KMenu stores it changes in...

This will not help. There is .config/menus/applications-tdemenuedit.menu but it only contains manually edited things. AFAIK the actual menu is assembled in memory from .desktop files

Anno domini 2021 Fri, 11 Jun 22:12:25 +0000 dep scripsit:

said Nick Koretsky: | On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 15:45:12 -0500 | | Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote: | > On Friday 11 June 2021 02:12:48 pm dep wrote: | > > Nor is there any place I can find a simple file that contains all | > > the entries in one's KMenu, such that one might rearrange them by | > > hand. It is surely stored someplace, but I cannot find it. It ought | > > to be able to be opened in a spreadsheet such that the order could | > > be altered with a click. | > | > Okay, this will suck... | > | > - Open a command prompt | > - Do nothing for more than 1 minute... | > - Edit something in KMenu | > - Then run these two commands | > | > # find / -newerct $(date +%Y-%m-%d -d '1 min ago') -type f | > # find / -newermt $(date +%Y-%m-%d -d '1 min ago') -type f | > | > The first does "Change" time, the second does "Create" time. | > | > And you *should*! be able to find where KMenu stores it changes in... | | This will not help. There is .config/menus/applications-tdemenuedit.menu | but it only contains manually edited things. | AFAIK the actual menu is assembled in memory from .desktop files

A glance at it suggests that it includes lots of things that I didn't add manually. But it would also be a huge headache to try to edit it into any kind of order.

Still, it's more than nothing. I just see no obvious way, other than cut'n'paste in a text editor, to manipulate it.

Am I the only one who finds KMenu troublesome?

I remember a time I used it, must be ages ago. Occasionally I use the search feature - ok, I used it once this year. Most of the time I simpy press <alt>+<f2> or open a console, that' much faster. :)

nik

-- dep

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said Borg Labs: | On Friday 11 June 2021 06:12:25 pm dep wrote: | > said Nick Koretsky: | > | On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 15:45:12 -0500 | > | | > | Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote: | > | > On Friday 11 June 2021 02:12:48 pm dep wrote: | > | > > Nor is there any place I can find a simple file that contains | > | > > all the entries in one's KMenu, such that one might rearrange | > | > > them by hand. It is surely stored someplace, but I cannot find | > | > > it. It ought to be able to be opened in a spreadsheet such that | > | > > the order could be altered with a click. | > | > | > | > Okay, this will suck... | > | > | > | > - Open a command prompt | > | > - Do nothing for more than 1 minute... | > | > - Edit something in KMenu | > | > - Then run these two commands | > | > | > | > # find / -newerct $(date +%Y-%m-%d -d '1 min ago') -type f | > | > # find / -newermt $(date +%Y-%m-%d -d '1 min ago') -type f | > | > | > | > The first does "Change" time, the second does "Create" time. | > | > | > | > And you *should*! be able to find where KMenu stores it changes | > | > in... | > | | > | This will not help. There is | > | .config/menus/applications-tdemenuedit.menu but it only contains | > | manually edited things. | > | AFAIK the actual menu is assembled in memory from .desktop files | > | > A glance at it suggests that it includes lots of things that I didn't | > add manually. But it would also be a huge headache to try to edit it | > into any kind of order. | > | > Still, it's more than nothing. I just see no obvious way, other than | > cut'n'paste in a text editor, to manipulate it. | > | > Am I the only one who finds KMenu troublesome? | > -- | > dep | | ME! | | Which is why, since they went xml or whatever, I've been creating my own | menus. | | What I do, is create a dir called "system" in my user dir | then add 'kmenu" | I give the dir a hidden icon, setup the .directory file. | Submenus, and desktop items. | | I then add them as quick browsers to kicker. | | I use kbfx as a main menu (thank you Ali) search function to find items | I want and copy them to the appropriate submenu in my custom kmenu. | | The kids love the "penguin menu" where all the most used items are. | | This can easily be customized using drag and drop and text editors. | | I also create a custom menu using keditmenu to add items I want to have | keyboard hot keys. | | A few steps but once it's done you can back it up, add, subtract items | etc. Been doing it since 3.5.

I've just downloaded and installed kbfx, but I can't make heads or tails of it. In fact, all that I can see that got installed was a configuration application that is heavy on themes -- yuck -- and light on how to use the thing. In fact, I can't find how to start the thing at all.

What I'm trying to achieve here is a menu that lists applications of my choosing in categories of my choosing in an order of my choosing, which would be alphabetical. I cannot imagine that this would be particularly complicated, but it apparently is. One of the reasons I abandoned KDE after 3.5 is that it seemed that people were engaging in Dickensian programming. (Charles Dickens was paid by the word, which is why his newspaper serials and resulting books are so long and complicated. If he had been paid by the job, they would have been shorter, less complicated, and generally better, I think.)

It needn't look any different from the regular KMenu. I just want to be able to populate it in my own fashion. No one else needs to like it, because no one else will ever see it.

I'm given to understand -- thanks, Kate! -- that kbfx somehow will allow this, but its configuration program is solely about how it looks, not what it contains. Nor does it specify how to start the damned thing. What's the command to open kbfx? -- dep

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Anno domini 2021 Sat, 12 Jun 19:30:41 +0000 dep via tde-users scripsit:

said Borg Labs: [...] | A few steps but once it's done you can back it up, add, subtract items | etc. Been doing it since 3.5.

I've just downloaded and installed kbfx, but I can't make heads or tails of it. In fact, all that I can see that got installed was a configuration application that is heavy on themes -- yuck -- and light on how to use the thing. In fact, I can't find how to start the thing at all.

What I'm trying to achieve here is a menu that lists applications of my choosing in categories of my choosing in an order of my choosing, which would be alphabetical. I cannot imagine that this would be particularly complicated, but it apparently is. One of the reasons I abandoned KDE after 3.5 is that it seemed that people were engaging in Dickensian programming. (Charles Dickens was paid by the word, which is why his newspaper serials and resulting books are so long and complicated. If he had been paid by the job, they would have been shorter, less complicated, and generally better, I think.)

It needn't look any different from the regular KMenu. I just want to be able to populate it in my own fashion. No one else needs to like it, because no one else will ever see it.

Oh, I totally forgot: some time ago I added a qucklauncher to my bar as second icon. It shows the content of a directory in my home folder ("tde-custom-menu") with all that stuff I seldom use but would like to have access to when needed. Well, it does not offer seperation lines and items are sorted alphabeticly by the filename, but as it's in the file system I can place anything I like in there, e.g. links to remote machines, programs, links to directories ... and the only tools needed are konsole+editor or konqueror+editor.

Nik

I'm given to understand -- thanks, Kate! -- that kbfx somehow will allow this, but its configuration program is solely about how it looks, not what it contains. Nor does it specify how to start the damned thing. What's the command to open kbfx? -- dep

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Remember who you love, tell them you love them, life is too short for regrets.

On Sunday, 13 June 2021, 23:08:08 BST, Borg Labs borglabs4@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday 12 June 2021 03:30:41 pm dep via tde-users wrote:

said Borg Labs: | On Friday 11 June 2021 06:12:25 pm dep wrote: | > said Nick Koretsky: | > | On Fri, 11 Jun 2021 15:45:12 -0500 | > | | > | Michael mb_trinity_desktop@inet-design.com wrote: | > | > On Friday 11 June 2021 02:12:48 pm dep wrote: | > | > > Nor is there any place I can find a simple file that contains | > | > > all the entries in one's KMenu, such that one might rearrange | > | > > them by hand. It is surely stored someplace, but I cannot find | > | > > it. It ought to be able to be opened in a spreadsheet such that | > | > > the order could be altered with a click. | > | > | > | > Okay, this will suck... | > | > | > | > - Open a command prompt | > | > - Do nothing for more than 1 minute... | > | > - Edit something in KMenu | > | > - Then run these two commands | > | > | > | > # find / -newerct $(date +%Y-%m-%d -d '1 min ago') -type f | > | > # find / -newermt $(date +%Y-%m-%d -d '1 min ago') -type f | > | > | > | > The first does "Change" time, the second does "Create" time. | > | > | > | > And you *should*! be able to find where KMenu stores it changes | > | > in... | > | | > | This will not help. There is | > | .config/menus/applications-tdemenuedit.menu but it only contains | > | manually edited things. | > | AFAIK the actual menu is assembled in memory from .desktop files | > | > A glance at it suggests that it includes lots of things that I didn't | > add manually. But it would also be a huge headache to try to edit it | > into any kind of order. | > | > Still, it's more than nothing. I just see no obvious way, other than | > cut'n'paste in a text editor, to manipulate it. | > | > Am I the only one who finds KMenu troublesome? | > -- | > dep | | ME! | | Which is why, since they went xml or whatever, I've been creating my own | menus. | | What I do, is create a dir called "system" in my user dir | then add 'kmenu" | I give the dir a hidden icon, setup the .directory file. | Submenus, and desktop items. | | I then add them as quick browsers to kicker. | | I use kbfx as a main menu (thank you Ali) search function to find items | I want and copy them to the appropriate submenu in my custom kmenu. | | The kids love the "penguin menu" where all the most used items are. | | This can easily be customized using drag and drop and text editors. | | I also create a custom menu using keditmenu to add items I want to have | keyboard hot keys. | | A few steps but once it's done you can back it up, add, subtract items | etc. Been doing it since 3.5.

I've just downloaded and installed kbfx, but I can't make heads or tails of it. In fact, all that I can see that got installed was a configuration application that is heavy on themes -- yuck -- and light on how to use the thing. In fact, I can't find how to start the thing at all.

What I'm trying to achieve here is a menu that lists applications of my choosing in categories of my choosing in an order of my choosing, which would be alphabetical. I cannot imagine that this would be particularly complicated, but it apparently is. One of the reasons I abandoned KDE after 3.5 is that it seemed that people were engaging in Dickensian programming. (Charles Dickens was paid by the word, which is why his newspaper serials and resulting books are so long and complicated. If he had been paid by the job, they would have been shorter, less complicated, and generally better, I think.)

It needn't look any different from the regular KMenu. I just want to be able to populate it in my own fashion. No one else needs to like it, because no one else will ever see it.

I'm given to understand -- thanks, Kate! -- that kbfx somehow will allow this, but its configuration program is solely about how it looks, not what it contains. Nor does it specify how to start the damned thing. What's the command to open kbfx? --

It's an applet. Unlock kicker. Choose "add applet to panel" If kbfx is installed, it will appear on the list.

Kate You may have to install kbfx via your fav package manager Alie ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...

said deloptes: | dep wrote: | > I just now spent five minutes looking in vain for PDF Arranger in my | > kmenu. I have no doubt it's there, but in the decades of KDE3x and TDE | > I've yet to have the kmenu search box work even once; meanwhile, items | > in the submenus are spashed across them with no sense nor reason I can | > find -- Settings, System, and Utilities are in many respects one | > submenu distributed at random across three. Install a new application? | > Where is it in the kmenu? It's not a menu, it's a *game*! | > | > (Example: I have the Gramps genealogy application installed. It's even | > on the kmenu. Wanna know where it got stuck? Office > Database.) | > | > This doesn't matter if you have just a few applications installed. | > More than that and you're screwed. | | This is not quite true. When application is being searched the kmenu | disables all menus where the string is not found. thus you can navigate | only there where the string is found

Right. Problem is, it's impossible to tell what it's called in KMenu. I've spent much of the afternoon -- still not done -- using kmenuedit to impose some order on KMenu. For some reason it lists applications not by name but by description, possibly due to the high concept of naming every KDE application something that begins with K, making it impossible to tell by name what the thing does. Exhibit A: Kivio. But the description is often unhelpful as well. So organization has involved not just sorting but giving useful names to applications where it's not obvious and eliminating the descriptions entirely.

| > The problem is exacerbated by new applications being installed any old | > place within a submenu. Might be at the top. Might be at the bottom. | > Might be in the middle. (And of course the classic favorite, in some | > other sub- or sub-submenu entirely.) | | This is related to the *.desktop topic Nik was refereing.

Its origin is of less concern to me than its very existence.

| > To make the game even more challenging, there's no practical way to | > bring order to it. There's no way to arrange the applications in | > alphabetical order within a submenu. | | This is definitely not the best to do - the applications are grouped by | type. Once you know which application you are using, once you know where | to find it. I guess you're the only one complaining about that. In the | beginning I also did not understand the logic. Meanwhile I find it very | good and will oppose changing it.

We get to choose a variety of less-important things. I am not proposing a rule for everyone. I propose that users get to decide themselves, individually, even as they can have pink-green titlebar gradients if that's what suits their fancy. A "sort by" dropbox in kmenuedit oughtn't be any more difficult than the option to sort by various criteria in Konqueror.

| > And for advanced players, kmenu is festooned with some script that | > without user intervention prevents the desktop from starting at all! | | I do not understand what you mean here. What script?

The one that blows up at the start of many if not most TDE sessions. r14-xdg-update, I believe it's called.

| > Surely there's got to be a way to automagically (or let users) | > organize the kmenu in TDE. Because as it stands, and has stood for | > decades, it's an unholy mess. | > | > Is there a recipe or script or, well, anything? | | So for decades you've been using KDE now TDE and still did not | learn/understand how the kmenu works?

I know how smallpox works and have for years, but that does not spark in me affection for smallpox. Of course I know how it works and have for as long as there has been such a thing as the KMenu, during the pre-1.0 betas. It is unnecessarily complicated and it does not give users a choice in a system built on doing just that.

| I do not want to insult you or make fun of you. The topic is very | complex and I am afraid TDE has to comply to some specifications. So is | TDE following the XDG. This is why you can still find your Gramps | application in the TDE menu although it is not part of TDE. | You can also find GIMP and other programs that are not part of TDE. | Unfortunately the developer decides where they will show up.

I am happy that TDE complies with standards set by some group someplace. My objection is to users not being able to confound those specifications when, to the user, they make no sense. Which ought to be easy but isn't.

| I suggest you have a look at Desktop under | https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/ | | 1. Desktop files | https://specifications.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/desktop-entry- |spec-1.0.html 2. Menu entries from desktop files | https://specifications.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/menu-spec-1.0.html | | I do not know how it is possible to modify this to suit your personal | needs. It seems the directories are defined in 2. | IMO you could write a script to modify the desktop files or save | somewhere in your home directory (may be .trinity/... something and | overwrite the default), but I am not sure this is possible.

But, you see, I do not give a toot for those specifications. I would like items to appear in alphabetical order on my computer on my desk. I do not propose that you must do that. I do not propose that anyone else must do that. I propose that I be able to do that.

| out of curiosity I wrote this to tell me which are the desktop files and | what is the Category configured | | locate .desktop | while read file; do | STR=$(grep "Categories=" $file) | if [ -n "$STR" ]; then | echo "==========" | echo $file | echo $STR | fi | done

And when I'm imterested in the contents of a .desktop file, I open that file in a text editor and look at it. -- dep

Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://www.athensnews.com/opinion/columns/the_view_from_mudsock_heights/

said Mike Bird via tde-users:

| Does opening /opt/trinity/bin in konqueror get you where you want to be?

No.

| You can add a non-TDE button to a panel (see attached) and click on it | to bring up the "menu" (see attached).

Yes, that's been possible since forever. For a very long time you can drag pretty nearly anything onto kicker and open it from there., and Konqueror has been able to launch applications since it was called KFM.

My goal has been to achieve something of the sort that Kate has mentioned and depicted. To further that goal I installed something she mentioned called kbfx, which I gather is of help. But if it exists in some form other than a configurator of -- what? -- I cannot find it.

Meanwhile, I have edited KMenu by hand in kmenuedit and have come part way toward achieving the goal (while removing a dozen or so -- so far -- duplicate entries). It appears that from time to time I'll have to go in and fix what the G7 or EU or Warsaw Pact has decreed I must have on my desktop. -- dep

Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://www.athensnews.com/opinion/columns/the_view_from_mudsock_heights/

said deloptes: | dep via tde-users wrote: | > Meanwhile, I have edited KMenu by hand in kmenuedit and have come part | > way toward achieving the goal (while removing a dozen or so -- so far | > -- duplicate entries). It appears that from time to time I'll have to | > go in and fix what the G7 or EU or Warsaw Pact has decreed I must have | > on my desktop. | | I'm not sure where kmenuedit saves the files. if it is under ~/.trinity | this is OK - the G7/EU/Warsaw Pact will not take effect :D | I am not sure how it works. It is more like European Round Table or | Skull and Bones :) .

<G>

it seems to save them under ~/.config/menus, if the timestamp is any indication.

also, i've just now noticed that the rmb menu on the tmenu or kmenu or whatever it's properly called button gives a choice of something called a "Kickoff Menu Style," which displays everything I've worked on for awhile among other things. is this the effect of kbfx, or was it there all along? if the latter, i'm surprised that i hadn't noticed it before. -- dep

Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://www.athensnews.com/opinion/columns/the_view_from_mudsock_heights/

said deloptes:

| dep via tde-users wrote: | > it seems to save them under ~/.config/menus, if the timestamp is any | > indication. | | yes, if you look at the freedesktop specs

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that the chief reason for the very existence of the Trinity Desktop is an unwillingness to submit to specs imposed by others.

| I also have the kickoff and do not have kbfx installed. I am not sure | what the kbfx is doing. I hope you've done a backup of your system | before start messing up :D

I've tracked down the kbfx executable. It's added as an applet in Kicker in the usual add-applet fashion. Which I did. It rendered the same old KMenu, with a bigger button. There seems to be a small industry in creating "skins" for it. This is important to some, I guess. But the important thing is whether it conforms to the UN Charter.

| Description: an alternative to T-Menu for TDE [Trinity] | KBFX is an alternative to the classical T-Menu button and its menu. | It improves the user experience by enabling him to set a bigger (and | thus more | visible) start button and by finally replacing the Win95-like T-Menu. | If you still want the old menu, because you're used to it, it is still | available as an option in kbfx. We recommend, however, that you give | the Spinx | bar a try.

Yes, that's what the meager documentation indeed says. What it doesn't say is how to start the damned thing. Might have been worth including in the readme or something. -- dep

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said William Morder via tde-users:

| Anyway, use the search feature in your TDE menu, enter kbfx, and you | ought to find *somewhere* within this item: | | kbfxconfigapp

Yes. Yes, it is there, as I've mentioned a few times. What the documentation failed to provide was a way of running the resultingly configured kbfx program, though as I also mentioned, I stumbled upon how it can by invoked via the RMB selection on Kicker, then Add applet to panel, then selecting kfmb from the list.

| Enter that into your run dialog (alt+F2), and it opens up the | configurator application.

Yes. I don't believe anyone has had any difficulty getting that far. -- dep

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said William Morder via tde-users:

| However ... here is the part that puzzles me (quoting yourself, dep). | | "What it doesn't say is how to start the damned thing. Might have been | worth including in the readme or something." | | I'm not sure what you mean by "how to start" the damned thing. If you | can open up the configurator, then you are starting it, no?

No. You're starting a configuration application -- KBFX Configurator -- which lets you specify the things you would like for KBFX. But it never tells you how to start the application that you have configured.

| Maybe I am missing something here; I have not yet plumbed its depths, | but only poked around. At a glance, though, I think maybe kbfx is not an | alternative menu to be run instead of the TDE menu, but only rather a | GUI way to reconfigure or customize the existing TDE menu.

No. No, it's not. KBFX is arrived at by clicking the right mouse button (the one on the right, not the correct one, though in the case the one on the right is the correct one) on the Kicker panel and choosing "Add applet to panel." A small window will appear. It contains a list. Scroll down until you find KBFX Sphinx and click on it. A very wide icon will fly onto the panel. You may then click on it and see KBFM in all its glory. You may change it by clicking the right mouse button and choosing to "Configure KBFX." Which action invokes the KBFX configurator. The real question is why the configurator got put in KMenu to begin with.

btw, I've sorted my KMenu. A picture, a small portion of the screenshot, is attached. -- dep

Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://www.athensnews.com/opinion/columns/the_view_from_mudsock_heights/

to restart kmenu, kicker, etc., kcontrol-panels-change something then change it back so the apply button gets ungreyed, then click apply and kpanel will restart. as to the rest, i've mentioned it twice.

dep Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://www.athensnews.com/opinion/columns/the_view_from_mudsock_heights/

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 5:57 PM, William Morder via tde-users users@trinitydesktop.org wrote:

On Sunday 13 June 2021 14:08:36 dep via tde-users wrote:

...

said William Morder via tde-users: | Anyway, use the search feature in your TDE menu, enter kbfx, and you | ought to find *somewhere* within this item: | | kbfxconfigapp

Yeah, so it occurred to me where else one might look.

On your control panel, right-click and go to "add applet to panel", then look for KBFX Spinx. Once added, you get an ugly launch icon. That might be what you want.

I would add that when I do this apparently simple thing, kicker or control panel goes all wonky, crashes and restarts. And when I right-click to move the kbfx icon, my TDE menu and other stuff disappears. So now I get to spend another while putting my control panel back in order.

:-\

Bill ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...

dep via tde-users wrote:

But, you see, I do not give a toot for those specifications. I would like items to appear in alphabetical order on my computer on my desk. I do not propose that you must do that. I do not propose that anyone else must do that. I propose that I be able to do that.

But, you see, you should "give a toot", because TDE complies to these specs (more or less). The time spent on this "stupid" wish to do things like you want would be more efficiently spent in learning the desktop you use (which includes the applications you use and the menus). I'm just trying to help by telling you that IMO the thing you want is not easily doable and at the end you will have probably more troubles. But I am not a person to tell someone what to do, neither I know TDE so good. I just wonder how it could be that you have such a problem knowing which application has which name and is located where in the menu. I mean if I drive a car, I still know where is the gas and the break pedal, but this is all that I can say. What you will do is your business.

And when I'm imterested in the contents of a .desktop file, I open that file in a text editor and look at it.

I was never interested in this until you came along with your fantasies :) It is what it is and there are people that work on this standardization so that all desktops work together. Developers follow and create the desktop files for each application, where also the category is being defined. Developers decide how each application will be named and how it will appear in the menu. Who is you and I to change this?