14 Sep
2020
14 Sep
'20
1:50 p.m.
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its
way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to
another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a
little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on
everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it
is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely
new thread.
14 Sep
14 Sep
2:02 p.m.
On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users wrote:
From Nik's previous post:
https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its
way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to
another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only
a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity
on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of
course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline
of creating a
completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
2:13 p.m.
On Monday 14 September 2020 07:02:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder
via tde-users wrote:
Cookies would go better with some ice cream, or at least a glass of milk.
Bill
From Nik's previous post:
https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work
its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to
avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to
another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with
only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity
on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of
course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the
discipline of creating a
completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;) 
5:46 p.m.
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Cookies would go better with some ice cream, or at least a glass of milk.
Bill
_______________________________________________ Wow, go for it Bill!
Kate
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On Monday 14 September 2020 07:02:41 Michael via
tde-users wrote:
> On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
From Nik's previous post:
https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work
its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to
avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine
to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much,
with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose
conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us;
because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares
instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the
discipline of creating a
completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
6:08 p.m.
On Monday 14 September 2020 12:46:05 pm BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users
wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via
tde-users wrote:
Cookies would go better with some ice cream, or at least a glass of milk.
Bill
_______________________________________________
Wow, go for it Bill!
I've only got chocolate atm, first ever TDE ice cream and cookie social?
On Monday 14 September 2020 07:02:41 Michael via
tde-users wrote:
> On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
From Nik's previous post:
https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually
work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become
hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one
machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that,
pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose
conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us;
because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares
instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the
discipline of creating a
completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;) 
6:22 p.m.
Anno domini 2020 Mon, 14 Sep 13:08:49 -0500
Michael via tde-users scripsit:
On Monday 14 September 2020 12:46:05 pm BorgLabs -
Kate Draven via tde-users
wrote:
I'm on it :)
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via
tde-users wrote:
Wow, go for it Bill!
I've only got chocolate atm, first ever TDE ice cream and cookie social? On Monday 14 September 2020 07:02:41 Michael via
tde-users wrote:
> On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
> From
Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
>
> This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually
> work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become
> hard to avoid.
>
> It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one
> machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that,
> pretty much, with only a little fuss.
>
> My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose
> conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us;
> because, of course, it is for our own good.
>
> They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares
> instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
> P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a
> completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
Cookies would go better with some ice cream, or at least a glass of milk.
Bill
_______________________________________________ _______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt…
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
2:23 p.m.
Anno domini 2020 Mon, 14 Sep 09:02:41 -0500
Michael via tde-users scripsit:
And here, a piece of Apfelstrudel (just fresh from the oven, with chinnamon, nice and
sweet ... the apples enjoied a sunny living till yesterday .. hope you don't feel bad
for the apples now) :)
On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder
via tde-users wrote:
I think systemd is a troll, invented by evil spirited GNOMEs to kill linux. BTW, looks
like systemd has already diluted the developer commuminity of debian - there was quite
some rant about the inability to recrute new devs. And the lady from M$ inside the linux
foundation rants about the kernel devs using text-only mailinglist as beeing a
"barrer to entry" for new devs. Who the hell wants developers that can't
even use email? Is tht a babisitting conest? You can just wonder ...
https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/10/debian_project_address/
https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/25/linux_kernel_email/
From Nik's previous post:
https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its
way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to
another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only
a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity
on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of
course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post? P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the
discipline of creating a
completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;) _______________________________________________
tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org
To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt…
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
2:34 p.m.
On Monday 14 September 2020 07:23:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
I think systemd is a troll, invented by evil spirited GNOMEs to kill linux.
BTW, looks like systemd has already diluted the developer commuminity of
debian - there was quite some rant about the inability to recrute new devs.
And the lady from M$ inside the linux foundation rants about the kernel
devs using text-only mailinglist as beeing a "barrer to entry" for new
devs. Who the hell wants developers that can't even use email? Is tht a
babisitting conest? You can just wonder ...
https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/10/debian_project_address/
https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/25/linux_kernel_email/
And here, a piece of Apfelstrudel (just fresh from the oven, with
chinnamon, nice and sweet ... the apples enjoied a sunny living till
yesterday .. hope you don't feel bad for the apples now) :)
Perfect! I usually like to bake my own, anyway, and avoid store-bought
so-called "foods"; so this hits the spot.
Besides, I have often been called a strudelkopf, so it must be true what they
say, you are what you eat. [apologies for any missing umlauts, etc.]
Bill
Anno domini 2020 Mon, 14 Sep 09:02:41 -0500
Michael via tde-users scripsit:
> On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
From Nik's previous post:
https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work
its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to
avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine
to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much,
with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose
conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us;
because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares
instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post? P.S. Note
that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a
completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
14 Sep
14 Sep
5:44 p.m.
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
I don't
understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to
use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly.
Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that
to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are pushing
it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
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Read list messages on the web archive: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/
Please remember not to top-post:
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From Nik's
previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its
way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to
another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only
a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity
on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of
course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a
completely new thread.
_______________________________________________
tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org
To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt
op.org
--------------------------------------------------------------------- 
15 Sep
15 Sep
3:31 a.m.
New subject: [users] systemd-homed - new thread
On 2020-09-14 12:44:39 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users wrote:
There's something suspcious about systemd,
especially the way they are
pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
No different than the new Gnome, or KDE4, et al, or NetworkManager...
12:40 p.m.
On Monday 14 September 2020 10:44:39 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users
wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via
tde-users wrote:
> >From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
>
> This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work
> its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to
> avoid.
>
> It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to
> another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with
> only a little fuss.
>
> My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity
> on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of
> course, it is for our own good.
>
> They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
>
> Bill
>
>
> P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a
> completely new thread.
I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can
already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to
use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly.
Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after
that to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are
pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler
proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of
corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute
power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free
money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at
work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It
makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move
into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of
their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first,
I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of
people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and
customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need
for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients",
but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are
taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become
the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the
business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from
our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only
because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
12:49 p.m.
Anno domini 2020 Tue, 15 Sep 05:40:58 -0700
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Monday 14 September 2020 10:44:39 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users
wrote:
Hm ... "social distancing", anybody?
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via
tde-users wrote:
> >From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
>
> This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work
> its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to
> avoid.
>
> It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to
> another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with
> only a little fuss.
>
> My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity
> on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of
> course, it is for our own good.
>
> They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
>
> Bill
>
>
> P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a
> completely new thread.
I don't understand why this is even needed?!
I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to
use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly.
Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after
that to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are
pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler
proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of
corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute
power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free
money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at
work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It
makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move
into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of
their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first,
I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of
people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and
customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need
for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients",
but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are
taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become
the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the
business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from
our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only
because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
_______________________________________________
tde-users mailing list -- users(a)trinitydesktop.org
To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)trinitydesktop.org
Web mail archive available at
https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt…
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
1:10 p.m.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 05:49:11 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Tue, 15 Sep 05:40:58 -0700
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
I think the "social distancing" has been happening for a long time now; the
pandemic has just made it much more extreme.
You and I and everybody else will often choose the non-contact way, if it
means preserving our peace and quiet, rather than having to go outdoors and
actually have a conversation with another person.
The grocer where I buy most of my food, for example: he's a nice guy, always
says hello, special orders the brand of coffee that I request, and so on; but
I don't really want to get into a deep conversation with him. I feel sure
that he would find my own interests to be disturbing, if not outright heresy
or blasphemy.
As long as we observe the social niceties, however, he remembers what is
important to us both, my information doesn't go into a database (so far as I
know), and harmony is preserved.
Bill
On Monday 14 September 2020 10:44:39 BorgLabs -
Kate Draven via tde-users
wrote:
Hm ... "social distancing", anybody?
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via
tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a
simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of
corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given
"free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler
principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their
customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in
person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never
actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get
to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to
serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and
services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition
also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of
course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but
just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation)
become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business.
What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money
directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But
this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion
any more. >From Nik's previous post:
https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually
work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become
hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one
machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that,
pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose
conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us;
because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares
instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a
completely new thread.
I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make
sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works
perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so
easy after that to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are
pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
1:14 p.m.
New subject: [users] systemd-homed - new thread
On 2020-09-15 07:40:58 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 10:44:39 BorgLabs - Kate
Draven via tde-users
wrote:
Actually, as has been pointed out by many people, to these businesses we are
no longer so much customers (to be sold products to) as products ourselves,
whose data can be sold to other companies.
Leslie
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via
tde-users wrote:
I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure
to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I
save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that
to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are
pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a
simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of
corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute
power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free
money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle
at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers.
(It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we
move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most
of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At
first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants
of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and
customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need
for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients",
but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are
taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation)
become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business.
What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money
directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But
this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion
any more.
Bill From
Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work
its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to
avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine
to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much,
with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose
conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us;
because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares
instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a
completely new thread.
1:25 p.m.
New subject: [users] systemd-homed - new thread
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 06:14:23 you wrote:
On 2020-09-15 07:40:58 William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
Also true.
Bill
On Monday 14 September 2020 10:44:39 BorgLabs -
Kate Draven via tde-users
wrote:
Actually, as has been pointed out by many people, to these businesses we
are no longer so much customers (to be sold products to) as products
ourselves, whose data can be sold to other companies.
Leslie On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via
tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a
simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of
corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given
"free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler
principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their
customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in
person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never
actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get
to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to
serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and
services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition
also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of
course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but
just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation)
become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business.
What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money
directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But
this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion
any more.
Bill >From Nik's previous post:
https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually
work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become
hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one
machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that,
pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose
conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us;
because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares
instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a
completely new thread.
I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make
sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works
perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so
easy after that to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are
pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate 
4:08 p.m.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking
here. I believe a simpler
proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of
corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute
power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free
money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at
work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It
makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move
into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of
their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first,
I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of
people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and
customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need
for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients",
but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are
taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become
the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the
business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from
our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only
because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like
thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered;
how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate
mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make
sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works
perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's
so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
f.
--
Felmon Davis
Verbum sat sapienti.
4:18 p.m.
New subject: [users] systemd-homed - new thread
On 2020-09-15 11:08:23 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
But isn't the UID/GID sync issue handled by other, already existing
mechanisms? NIS and LDAP come to mind.
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory
thinking here. I believe a
simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of
corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given
"free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler
principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their
customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in
person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never
actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get
to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to
serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and
services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition
also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of
course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but
just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation)
become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business.
What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money
directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But
this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion
any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like
thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered;
how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate
mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make
sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works
perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's
so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
f.
4:20 p.m.
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST)
Felmon Davis scripsit:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
There are hords of resons.
1) security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in. Well, that's a
bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor your home is now compromised, too. And
becaus of the ease to do, you compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day
...
2) TRhis problem was solved when? 40 years ago? When was it, NFS+yellowpages was
introduced?
3) It does not address at all the problems of different hardware and different OS. You can
share your home on any *nix system you like - if you are a bit coutious - without
systemd-homed. You cannot any more when you use systemd-homed.
4) WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd. Remember the "benefits" of binary
logfiles?
5) "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned" than anything
else.
Nik
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory
thinking here. I believe a simpler
proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of
corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute
power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free
money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at
work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It
makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move
into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of
their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first,
I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of
people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and
customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need
for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients",
but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are
taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become
the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the
business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from
our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only
because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like
thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered;
how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate
mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make
sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works
perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's
so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
f.
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
6:04 p.m.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST)
Felmon Davis scripsit:
Agreed. My gut tells me this is going to backfire but only after it's been
adopted. No thanks. I'll do it the old fashioned way.
I've transplanted by home across different distros with some judicious pruning
and have never had a problem. Red Hat to Debian, Debian to Slackware,
Slackware to Ark Linux, Ark Linux to BD PCLOS. No problems I couldn't handle.
The biggest problem I have now is that the dialog for applying an icon to an
application button, freezes and I'll eventually figure that out. I don't
believe it's related to my users because it happens on new users. I think I'm
installing something that's causing the problem.
I don't like the idea of "I'll think for you" software.
Kate
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On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
There are hords of resons.
1) security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in. Well,
that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor your home is
now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you compromomise all
systems you go to that day and the next day ... 2) TRhis problem was solved
when? 40 years ago? When was it, NFS+yellowpages was introduced? 3) It does
not address at all the problems of different hardware and different OS. You
can share your home on any *nix system you like - if you are a bit coutious
- without systemd-homed. You cannot any more when you use systemd-homed. 4)
WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd. Remember the "benefits" of
binary logfiles? 5) "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned"
than
anything else.
Nik
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory
thinking here. I believe a
simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree
of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given
"free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler
principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are
their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we
meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in
business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find
other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well,
and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use
their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows,
and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater
control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of
course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but
just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation)
become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing
business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to
withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from
ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is
becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like
thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered;
how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate
mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make
sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works
perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's
so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
6:09 p.m.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST)
Felmon Davis scripsit:
[...]
many of the reasons you cite go beyond my technical knowledge but I'll
venture comments on a couple:
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
There are hords of resons.
1) security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in.
Well, that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor
your home is now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you
compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day ...
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer
'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather,
I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is
compromised.
and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry, I can't find
the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
2) TRhis problem was solved when? 40 years ago? When
was it, NFS+yellowpages was introduced?
I have no idea. will have to look this up.
sometime.
3) It does not address at all the problems of
different hardware and
different OS. You can share your home on any *nix system you like -
if you are a bit coutious - without systemd-homed. You cannot any
more when you use systemd-homed.
I don't follow. even rsync-ing to another computer may involve some
fix-ups as Kate expressly indicated. you are saying once installed by
'systemd-homed' I cannot fix configuration files in 'home'?
4) WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd. Remember
the "benefits" of binary logfiles?
5) "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned" than anything
else.
Nik
I don't use systemd or at least didn't until it cropped up in my
install of MX and 4QOS but I think that's minimalistic.
anyway, I'm not advocating systemd, just wondering what's so terrible
about systemd-homed.
it sounds like what's terrible about systend-homed is that it's
systemd!
f.
--
Felmon Davis
Verbum sat sapienti.
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6:30 p.m.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon Davis wrote:
I think Michael's post encapsulated what is wrong with homed (quoting what he
himself mostly quotes):
###########
Quote:
"All user-specific records are stored within a JSON formatted file called
~/.identity which is cryptographically signed with a key out of the users
control."
.."out of the users control"...
Quote-End:
Welcome to Big Brother?
Seriously, homed says my data is not mine. Worse, if homed borks, then I've
lost ALL my data.
This reply from the linked article, also seems to be relevent:
Quote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
quoted from E.Liddell's earlier post:
###########
The target audience here isn't home users, it's business and education
setups where the users are (understandably) not trusted by the sysadmin.
It's the businesses that pay Red Hat's bills, so naturally they cater to them.
###########
I think that he made that point, and I agree. The promise of "a personal
computer in every home" seems to have been pushed aside in deference to the
needs of business. If home users can make it work, no problem, it's free; but
developers generally don't think of home users any more, because anybody who
is interested in computers (in the way we discuss these matters here) already
works in the field.
I am guessing that at least 3/4 of our mailing list are people who work in the
field, or that they are not the sort of person we usually imagine as "home
users".
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200
(CEST)
Felmon Davis scripsit:
[...]
many of the reasons you cite go beyond my technical knowledge but I'll
venture comments on a couple:
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get
trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
There are hords of resons. 1) security relies on trust into the computer you
plug your home in.
Well, that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor
your home is now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you
compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day ...
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer
'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather,
I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is
compromised.
and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry, I can't find
the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
2) TRhis
problem was solved when? 40 years ago? When was it,
NFS+yellowpages was introduced?
I have no idea. will have to look this up.
sometime.
3) It does not address at all the problems of
different hardware and
different OS. You can share your home on any *nix system you like -
if you are a bit coutious - without systemd-homed. You cannot any
more when you use systemd-homed.
I don't follow. even rsync-ing to another computer may involve some
fix-ups as Kate expressly indicated. you are saying once installed by
'systemd-homed' I cannot fix configuration files in 'home'?
4) WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd.
Remember the "benefits" of
binary logfiles? 5) "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned"
than
anything else.
Nik
I don't use systemd or at least didn't until it cropped up in my
install of MX and 4QOS but I think that's minimalistic.
anyway, I'm not advocating systemd, just wondering what's so terrible
about systemd-homed.
it sounds like what's terrible about systend-homed is that it's
systemd!
f. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the
entire home directory
if there is a conflict.
Riiiiight.
I'm supposed to trust you to know what my home directory permissions are
supposed to be?
Are you fucking crazy?"
Quote-End:
Background on this is that, especially in a developer's system, it's frequent
to have files owned by different users and groups within your home. homed is
just going to overwrite all that.
###########
Just trying to bring the different views together in one place.
Bill
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8:48 p.m.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST)
> Felmon Davis scripsit:
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer
'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather,
I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is
compromised.
and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry, I can't find
the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
quoted from E.Liddell's earlier post:
###########
The target audience here isn't home users, it's business and education
setups where the users are (understandably) not trusted by the sysadmin
9:29 p.m.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 13:48:45 Felmon Davis wrote:
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On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users
wrote:
but this mirrors my situation on my system: I am 'user' and there is
'root'; a lot of things are "out of the user's control" on my
systems
though, of course, I can change my hat and become 'root'.
but maybe that's not what's going on with systemd-homed.
How do you know you're crazy (or even effin crazy)?
In my experience, those few who are really crazy (in the sense
of "out-of-touch with reality") tend to occupy positions of great power and
wealth, especially in government, business and the like.
Do you work in one of those fields? If not, you're probably not as crazy as
you are being told.
Bill
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon
Davis wrote:
exactly, thank you and apologies to E. Liddell.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
quoted from E.Liddell's earlier post:
###########
The target audience here isn't home users, it's business and education
setups where the users are (understandably) not trusted by the sysadmin.
It's the businesses that pay Red Hat's bills, so naturally they cater to
them. ########### Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200
(CEST)
Felmon Davis scripsit:
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer
'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather,
I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is
compromised.
and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry, I can't find
the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment. it sounds
like what's terrible about systend-homed is that it's
systemd!
f.
I think Michael's post encapsulated what is wrong with homed (quoting
what he himself mostly quotes):
###########
Quote:
"All user-specific records are stored within a JSON formatted file called
~/.identity which is cryptographically signed with a key out of the users
control."
..."out of the users control"...
Quote-End:
Welcome to Big Brother? Seriously, homed says my data is not mine.
Worse, if homed borks, then
I've lost ALL my data.
This reply from the linked article, also seems to be relevent:
Quote:
gawd, I don't really want to defend a program I don't know or
understand but no, you are supposed to trust *yourself* to know what
your home permissions are.
systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on
the entire home
directory
if there is a conflict.
Riiiiight.
I'm supposed to trust you to know what my home directory permissions are
supposed to be? Are you fucking crazy?"
yes, but now we're off-topic again.
Quote-End:
Background on this is that, especially in a developer's system, it's
frequent to have files owned by different users and groups within your
home. homed is just going to overwrite all that.
###########
thus it seems this is not the intended 'use-case'.
Just trying to bring the different views together
in one place.
thank you, this was helpful, provided context.
f.
10:42 p.m.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 13:48:45 Felmon Davis wrote:
How do you know you're crazy (or even effin crazy)?
In my experience, those few who are really crazy (in the sense
of "out-of-touch with reality") tend to occupy positions of great power and
wealth, especially in government, business and the like.
or imagine they do.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via
trinity-users wrote:
> On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon Davis wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Are you fucking crazy?"
yes, but now we're off-topic again.
Do you work in one of those fields? If not, you're
probably not as crazy as
you are being told.
maybe you're right. will see what my wife says.
f.
--
Felmon Davis
Verbum sat sapienti.
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10:53 p.m.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 15:42:41 Felmon Davis via tde-users wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users
wrote:
Oooh. Bad move. Never ask your significant other questions about your sanity.
You will definitely discover that you are crazy; either that, or stupid, or
both. She knows you better than anybody else, except of course your mother.
Bill
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 13:48:45 Felmon
Davis wrote:
or imagine they do.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via
trinity-users wrote:
How do you know you're crazy (or even effin crazy)?
In my experience, those few who are really crazy (in the sense
of "out-of-touch with reality") tend to occupy positions of great power
and wealth, especially in government, business and the like. On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon
Davis wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Are you fucking crazy?"
yes, but now we're off-topic again. Do you work in one of those fields? If not,
you're probably not as crazy
as you are being told.
maybe you're right. will see what my wife says.
f.
16 Sep
16 Sep
7:42 a.m.
Anno domini 2020 Tue, 15 Sep 15:53:46 -0700
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 15:42:41 Felmon Davis via tde-users wrote:
Hm ... I think I live in a family of lunatics :)
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via
trinity-users wrote:
Oooh. Bad move. Never ask your significant other questions about your sanity.
You will definitely discover that you are crazy; either that, or stupid, or
both. She knows you better than anybody else, except of course your mother. On Tuesday 15 September 2020 13:48:45 Felmon
Davis wrote:
or imagine they do.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via
trinity-users wrote:
> On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon Davis wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
>
> Are you fucking crazy?"
yes, but now we're off-topic again.
How do you know you're crazy (or even effin crazy)?
In my experience, those few who are really crazy (in the sense
of "out-of-touch with reality") tend to occupy positions of great power
and wealth, especially in government, business and the like. Do you work in one of those fields? If not,
you're probably not as crazy
as you are being told.
maybe you're right. will see what my wife says.
f.
Bill
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Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
15 Sep
15 Sep
6:39 p.m.
Anno domini 20:09:27 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST)
Felmon Davis via tde-users scripsit:
Which raises the question: why would a user wander with his home on a stick from computer
to computer? For "security"? His/Her home an be stolen, lost, corrupted ... for
what? To "ease" backup? Definitly not. That was why NFS was invented. DJs with
floppies in their hands preceded NFS. I thought that times were dead for good.
1984 that was. What a magical number, so full of inspiration.
If you have only "libsystemd0" it's ok, if you have systemd as init .. you
remeber "svchost" from windows?
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
(I need more popcorn .. and a spellchecker)
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200
(CEST)
Felmon Davis scripsit:
[...]
many of the reasons you cite go beyond my technical knowledge but I'll
venture comments on a couple:
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
There are hords of resons.
1) security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in.
Well, that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor
your home is now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you
compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day ...
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer
'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather,
I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is
compromised. and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry,
I can't find
the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
Yes, I can vividly imagine some suits not carring their Notebooks around but USB
flashdives .. no, won't happen. Companies have servers - there is a reason why these
bethelemoths are named that way. Campus/university? Nop, neither that. Everybody has
his/her notebook ... oh, maybe it is intended to use a home on the phone and plug that
thing as USB flashdrive .. no, won't happen either, we had that problem on the list
earlier.
2) TRhis problem was solved when? 40 years ago?
When was it, NFS+yellowpages was introduced?
I have no idea. will have to look this up.
sometime.
You can. But then you have to fix systemd-homed before (remember that JSON file),
'cause sooner or later some genus will find out about "user groups", and
will start to "fix" that, too. And each run of "chown ..." will change
the entire home directory, so your flashdrive will like it.
3) It does not address at all the problems of
different hardware and
different OS. You can share your home on any *nix system you like -
if you are a bit coutious - without systemd-homed. You cannot any
more when you use systemd-homed.
I don't follow. even rsync-ing to another computer may involve some
fix-ups as Kate expressly indicated. you are saying once installed by
'systemd-homed' I cannot fix configuration files in 'home'? 4) WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd.
Remember the "benefits" of binary logfiles?
5) "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned" than anything
else.
Nik
I don't use systemd or at least didn't until it cropped up in my
install of MX and 4QOS but I think that's minimalistic. anyway, I'm not advocating systemd, just wondering
what's so terrible
about systemd-homed.
It solves a problem that does not exist since 1984. It solves it in a way that it breaks
onlmost anything but the most simple usecase - and there it's not needed in the first
place.
it sounds like what's terrible about systend-homed is that it's
systemd!
Knowinf the origin of a software often gives a strong hint on what to expect. And yes,
comming from systemd is alost the same nogo as comming from gnome.
Nik
f.
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
6:49 p.m.
New subject: [users] systemd-homed - new thread
On 2020-09-15 13:39:42 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 20:09:27 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST)
Felmon Davis via tde-users scripsit:
Which raises the question: why would a user wander with his home on a stick
from computer to computer? For "security"? His/Her home an be stolen, lost,
corrupted ... for what? To "ease" backup? Definitly not. That was why NFS
was invented. DJs with floppies in their hands preceded NFS. I thought that
times were dead for good.
1984 that was. What a magical number, so full of inspiration.
If you have only "libsystemd0" it's ok, if you have systemd as init .. you
remeber "svchost" from windows?
homed looks to me like another cure in search of a disease, much like the
semantic search "improvements" added in various desktops that made them
mostly unresponsive.
As Victor Borge said of his uncle the inventor, "He discovered the cure for
which there was no disease. Unfortunately, he later caught the cure and
died." :-)
Leslie
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
(I need more popcorn .. and a spellchecker)
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200
(CEST)
Felmon Davis scripsit:
[...]
many of the reasons you cite go beyond my technical knowledge but I'll
venture comments on a couple: I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get
trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets
encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
There are hords of resons. 1)
security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in.
Well, that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor
your home is now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you
compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day ...
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer
'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather,
I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is
compromised. and as someone pointed out further down-thread
(sorry, I can't find
the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
Yes, I can vividly imagine some suits not carring their Notebooks around
but USB flashdives .. no, won't happen. Companies have servers - there is a
reason why these bethelemoths are named that way. Campus/university? Nop,
neither that. Everybody has his/her notebook ... oh, maybe it is intended
to use a home on the phone and plug that thing as USB flashdrive .. no,
won't happen either, we had that problem on the list earlier.
2) TRhis
problem was solved when? 40 years ago? When was it,
NFS+yellowpages was introduced?
I have no idea. will have to look this up. sometime.
You can. But then you have to fix systemd-homed before (remember that JSON
file), 'cause sooner or later some genus will find out about "user
groups",
and will start to "fix" that, too. And each run of "chown ..." will
change
the entire home directory, so your flashdrive will like it.
3) It does not address at all the problems of
different hardware and
different OS. You can share your home on any *nix system you like -
if you are a bit coutious - without systemd-homed. You cannot any
more when you use systemd-homed.
I don't follow. even rsync-ing to another computer may involve some
fix-ups as Kate expressly indicated. you are saying once installed by
'systemd-homed' I cannot fix configuration files in 'home'? 4) WTF
encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd. Remember the "benefits"
of binary logfiles? 5) "systemd-homed" looks more like
"systemd-owned"
than anything else.
Nik
I don't use systemd or at least didn't until it cropped up in my
install of MX and 4QOS but I think that's minimalistic. anyway, I'm not advocating systemd, just
wondering what's so terrible
about systemd-homed.
It solves a problem that does not exist since 1984. It solves it in a way
that it breaks onlmost anything but the most simple usecase - and there
it's not needed in the first place.
it sounds like what's terrible about
systend-homed is that it's
systemd!
Knowinf the origin of a software often gives a strong hint on what to
expect. And yes, comming from systemd is alost the same nogo as comming
from gnome.
Nik
> f.
4:35 p.m.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:08:23 am Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
Quote:
"All user-specific records are stored within a JSON formatted file called
~/.identity which is cryptographically signed with a key out of the users
control."
..."out of the users control"...
Quote-End:
Welcome to Big Brother?
Seriously, homed says my data is not mine. Worse, if homed borks, then I've
lost ALL my data.
This reply from the linked article, also seems to be relevent:
Quote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory
thinking here. I believe a
simpler proportion is at work.
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like
thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered;
how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate
mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make
sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works
perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's
so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus? systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the
entire home directory
if there is a conflict.
Riiiiight.
I'm supposed to trust you to know what my home directory permissions are
supposed to be?
Are you fucking crazy?"
Quote-End:
Background on this is that, especially in a developer's system, it's frequent
to have files owned by different users and groups within your home. homed is
just going to overwrite all that.
5:44 p.m.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 11:35:30 -0500
Michael via tde-users <ml-migration-agent(a)trinitydesktop.org> wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:08:23 am Felmon Davis
wrote:
The target audience here isn't home users, it's business and education
setups where the users are (understandably) not trusted by the sysadmin.
It's the businesses that pay Red Hat's bills, so naturally they cater to them.
It's unfortunate that some distros force solutions intended for enterprise
environments down the throats of home users without stopping to think
about whether it's a good idea, but that's the way of the world.
(See also: systemd itself, ldap, etc. etc. ad nauseum).
E. Liddell
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On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
Quote:
"All user-specific records are stored within a JSON formatted file called
~/.identity which is cryptographically signed with a key out of the users
control."
.."out of the users control"...
Quote-End:
Welcome to Big Brother?
Seriously, homed says my data is not mine. Worse, if homed borks, then I've
lost ALL my data. Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory
thinking here. I believe a
simpler proportion is at work.
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like
thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered;
how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate
mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make
sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works
perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's
so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
4:53 p.m.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 09:08:23 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
I agree, lots of thread drift here. We really ought to start a new thread once
we get into philosophy and politics and stuff.
For me, the jury is still out on homed, at least as a concept. All those
benefits do seem double-plus good and all. What I don't like is systemd,
because it was thrust upon us without consent, over the objections of many
developers themselves, and goes directly against the philosophy of Debian
(too much explanation required here).
Maybe it is a good thing; some seem to think so, but systemd takes control
away from users themselves, in many small ways. I don't like it myself mainly
because my system doesn't run so well with systemd.
And, if I read correctly, you can't get homed without systemd. But homed,
which does sound good in so many ways, will somehow (I suspect) be used to
get people using systemd.
Maybe there is somebody who is already thinking of a systemd-free homed
system? Is it possible?
Again, if you are content with what you have, then it's hard for me to argue
that you [the universal you] ought to be doing something different, just
because, in my opinion, it's better or more secure or whatever. If you like
what you have, and don't want to change, then just keep shining on.
Bill
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory
thinking here. I believe a
simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of
corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given
"free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler
principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their
customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in
person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never
actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get
to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to
serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and
services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition
also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of
course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but
just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation)
become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business.
What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money
directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But
this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion
any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like
thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstr�del must be considered;
how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate
mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make
sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works
perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's
so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
f.
6:16 p.m.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
I agree, lots of thread drift here. We really ought to
start a new thread once
we get into philosophy and politics and stuff.
For me, the jury is still out on homed, at least as a concept. All those
benefits do seem double-plus good and all. What I don't like is systemd,
because it was thrust upon us without consent, over the objections of many
developers themselves, and goes directly against the philosophy of Debian
(too much explanation required here).
Maybe it is a good thing; some seem to think so, but systemd takes control
away from users themselves, in many small ways. I don't like it myself mainly
because my system doesn't run so well with systemd.
I have only minimalistic use of systemd so I don't know beyond things
I read online.
accordingly, I haven't noticed how control is taken away except
insofar as I am not familiar with its ways and means so there's a
whole new 'language' to learn.
but as you indicate, this takes us into a wide and deep discussion of
the philosophy and politics of systemd and of (l)unix. we needn't
plunge into that here.
I think sometime I'll get all systemd-ed up on a laptop and get a feel
for it.
f.
--
Felmon Davis
Verbum sat sapienti.
6:21 p.m.
New subject: [users] systemd-homed - new thread
On 2020-09-15 11:53:52 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 09:08:23 Felmon Davis
wrote:
Hopefully, homed will not be so deeply intertwined into other things that one
cannot simply delete it from the system if one so chooses.
Leslie
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
I agree, lots of thread drift here. We really ought to start a new thread
once we get into philosophy and politics and stuff.
For me, the jury is still out on homed, at least as a concept. All those
benefits do seem double-plus good and all. What I don't like is systemd,
because it was thrust upon us without consent, over the objections of many
developers themselves, and goes directly against the philosophy of Debian
(too much explanation required here).
Maybe it is a good thing; some seem to think so, but systemd takes control
away from users themselves, in many small ways. I don't like it myself
mainly because my system doesn't run so well with systemd.
And, if I read correctly, you can't get homed without systemd. But homed,
which does sound good in so many ways, will somehow (I suspect) be used to
get people using systemd.
Maybe there is somebody who is already thinking of a systemd-free homed
system? Is it possible?
Again, if you are content with what you have, then it's hard for me to
argue that you [the universal you] ought to be doing something different,
just because, in my opinion, it's better or more secure or whatever. If you
like what you have, and don't want to change, then just keep shining on.
Bill Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory
thinking here. I believe a
simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree
of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering
front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given
"free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler
principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are
their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we
meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in
business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find
other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well,
and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use
their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows,
and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater
control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or
"clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of
course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but
just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation)
become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing
business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to
withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from
ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is
becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like
thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstr�del must be considered;
how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate
mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home
directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make
sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works
perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's
so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs
and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a
machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop
and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to
be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory
container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you
are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire
home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
f.
5:47 p.m.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 09:08:23 Felmon Davis wrote:
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like
thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstr�del must be considered;
By the way, I will not permit any retraction of offers of baked goods,
including apfelstrudel, cookies, and whatever else may be served with it,
such as ice cream or a glass of milk.
Bill
5:55 p.m.
Anno domini 2020 Tue, 15 Sep 10:47:03 -0700
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 09:08:23 Felmon Davis wrote:
So sad. On the other hand, icecream will most likely melt and apfelstrudel will already
have gotten appels itself before it reaches your site ... but I can offer Lebkuchen (aka
gingerbread), made it yesterday. I suspect some of the other human beeings here have found
the jar - it's so much lighter now ...
Nik
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like
thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstr�del must be considered;
By the way, I will not permit any retraction of offers of baked goods,
including apfelstrudel, cookies, and whatever else may be served with it,
such as ice cream or a glass of milk.
Bill
--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA,
CIA ...
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35 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
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BorgLabs - Kate Draven -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
E. Liddell
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Felmon Davis
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Felmon Davis -
J Leslie Turriff -
Michael -
William Morder -
William Morder via trinity-users