From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
On Monday 14 September 2020 07:02:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
Cookies would go better with some ice cream, or at least a glass of milk.
Bill
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 07:02:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
Cookies would go better with some ice cream, or at least a glass of milk.
Bill _______________________________________________
Wow, go for it Bill!
Kate
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On Monday 14 September 2020 12:46:05 pm BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 07:02:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
Cookies would go better with some ice cream, or at least a glass of milk.
Bill _______________________________________________
Wow, go for it Bill!
I've only got chocolate atm, first ever TDE ice cream and cookie social?
Anno domini 2020 Mon, 14 Sep 13:08:49 -0500 Michael via tde-users scripsit:
On Monday 14 September 2020 12:46:05 pm BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 07:02:41 Michael via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
Cookies would go better with some ice cream, or at least a glass of milk.
Bill _______________________________________________
Wow, go for it Bill!
I've only got chocolate atm, first ever TDE ice cream and cookie social?
I'm on it :)
tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
Anno domini 2020 Mon, 14 Sep 09:02:41 -0500 Michael via tde-users scripsit:
On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
I think systemd is a troll, invented by evil spirited GNOMEs to kill linux. BTW, looks like systemd has already diluted the developer commuminity of debian - there was quite some rant about the inability to recrute new devs. And the lady from M$ inside the linux foundation rants about the kernel devs using text-only mailinglist as beeing a "barrer to entry" for new devs. Who the hell wants developers that can't even use email? Is tht a babisitting conest? You can just wonder ...
https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/10/debian_project_address/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/25/linux_kernel_email/
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
And here, a piece of Apfelstrudel (just fresh from the oven, with chinnamon, nice and sweet ... the apples enjoied a sunny living till yesterday .. hope you don't feel bad for the apples now) :)
tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
On Monday 14 September 2020 07:23:52 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Mon, 14 Sep 09:02:41 -0500
Michael via tde-users scripsit:
On Monday 14 September 2020 08:50:22 am William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Wait, What? That wasn't a Troll post?
I think systemd is a troll, invented by evil spirited GNOMEs to kill linux. BTW, looks like systemd has already diluted the developer commuminity of debian - there was quite some rant about the inability to recrute new devs. And the lady from M$ inside the linux foundation rants about the kernel devs using text-only mailinglist as beeing a "barrer to entry" for new devs. Who the hell wants developers that can't even use email? Is tht a babisitting conest? You can just wonder ...
https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/10/debian_project_address/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/25/linux_kernel_email/
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
Thank you Bill! Cookie for you ;)
And here, a piece of Apfelstrudel (just fresh from the oven, with chinnamon, nice and sweet ... the apples enjoied a sunny living till yesterday .. hope you don't feel bad for the apples now) :)
Perfect! I usually like to bake my own, anyway, and avoid store-bought so-called "foods"; so this hits the spot.
Besides, I have often been called a strudelkopf, so it must be true what they say, you are what you eat. [apologies for any missing umlauts, etc.]
Bill
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskt op.org
I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
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On 2020-09-14 12:44:39 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users wrote:
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
No different than the new Gnome, or KDE4, et al, or NetworkManager...
On Monday 14 September 2020 10:44:39 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
Anno domini 2020 Tue, 15 Sep 05:40:58 -0700 William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Monday 14 September 2020 10:44:39 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Hm ... "social distancing", anybody?
Bill _______________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 05:49:11 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2020 Tue, 15 Sep 05:40:58 -0700
William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Monday 14 September 2020 10:44:39 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users
wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Hm ... "social distancing", anybody?
I think the "social distancing" has been happening for a long time now; the pandemic has just made it much more extreme.
You and I and everybody else will often choose the non-contact way, if it means preserving our peace and quiet, rather than having to go outdoors and actually have a conversation with another person.
The grocer where I buy most of my food, for example: he's a nice guy, always says hello, special orders the brand of coffee that I request, and so on; but I don't really want to get into a deep conversation with him. I feel sure that he would find my own interests to be disturbing, if not outright heresy or blasphemy.
As long as we observe the social niceties, however, he remembers what is important to us both, my information doesn't go into a database (so far as I know), and harmony is preserved.
Bill
On 2020-09-15 07:40:58 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 10:44:39 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users
wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
Actually, as has been pointed out by many people, to these businesses we are no longer so much customers (to be sold products to) as products ourselves, whose data can be sold to other companies.
Leslie
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 06:14:23 you wrote:
On 2020-09-15 07:40:58 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020 10:44:39 BorgLabs - Kate Draven via tde-users
wrote:
On Monday 14 September 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
From Nik's previous post: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed
This systemd crap is already bad enough, but homed will eventually work its way into other stuff beyond systemd, and then will become hard to avoid.
It *sounds* good, being able to move home directories from one machine to another without so much fuss; but I already do that, pretty much, with only a little fuss.
My suspicion is that somebody's mother is now trying to impose conformity on everybody, not just myself, to do our thinking for us; because, of course, it is for our own good.
They are trying to get rid of a headache by giving us nightmares instead.
Bill
P.S. Note that I alone am sticking to the discipline of creating a completely new thread.
I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec.
There's something suspcious about systemd, especially the way they are pushing it on everyone. Whatever happened to freedom on free software?
Kate
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
Actually, as has been pointed out by many people, to these businesses we are no longer so much customers (to be sold products to) as products ourselves, whose data can be sold to other companies.
Leslie
Also true.
Bill
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered; how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
f.
On 2020-09-15 11:08:23 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered; how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
f.
But isn't the UID/GID sync issue handled by other, already existing mechanisms? NIS and LDAP come to mind.
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST) Felmon Davis scripsit:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered; how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
There are hords of resons. 1) security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in. Well, that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor your home is now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day ... 2) TRhis problem was solved when? 40 years ago? When was it, NFS+yellowpages was introduced? 3) It does not address at all the problems of different hardware and different OS. You can share your home on any *nix system you like - if you are a bit coutious - without systemd-homed. You cannot any more when you use systemd-homed. 4) WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd. Remember the "benefits" of binary logfiles? 5) "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned" than anything else.
Nik
f.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST)
Felmon Davis scripsit:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered; how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
There are hords of resons.
- security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in. Well,
that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor your home is now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day ... 2) TRhis problem was solved when? 40 years ago? When was it, NFS+yellowpages was introduced? 3) It does not address at all the problems of different hardware and different OS. You can share your home on any *nix system you like - if you are a bit coutious
- without systemd-homed. You cannot any more when you use systemd-homed. 4)
WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd. Remember the "benefits" of binary logfiles? 5) "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned" than anything else.
Nik
Agreed. My gut tells me this is going to backfire but only after it's been adopted. No thanks. I'll do it the old fashioned way.
I've transplanted by home across different distros with some judicious pruning and have never had a problem. Red Hat to Debian, Debian to Slackware, Slackware to Ark Linux, Ark Linux to BD PCLOS. No problems I couldn't handle.
The biggest problem I have now is that the dialog for applying an icon to an application button, freezes and I'll eventually figure that out. I don't believe it's related to my users because it happens on new users. I think I'm installing something that's causing the problem.
I don't like the idea of "I'll think for you" software.
Kate
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On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST) Felmon Davis scripsit:
[...]
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
There are hords of resons.
many of the reasons you cite go beyond my technical knowledge but I'll venture comments on a couple:
- security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in.
Well, that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor your home is now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day ...
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer 'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather, I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is compromised.
and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry, I can't find the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
- TRhis problem was solved when? 40 years ago? When was it, NFS+yellowpages was introduced?
I have no idea. will have to look this up.
sometime.
- It does not address at all the problems of different hardware and
different OS. You can share your home on any *nix system you like - if you are a bit coutious - without systemd-homed. You cannot any more when you use systemd-homed.
I don't follow. even rsync-ing to another computer may involve some fix-ups as Kate expressly indicated. you are saying once installed by 'systemd-homed' I cannot fix configuration files in 'home'?
- WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd. Remember the "benefits" of binary logfiles?
- "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned" than anything else.
Nik
I don't use systemd or at least didn't until it cropped up in my install of MX and 4QOS but I think that's minimalistic.
anyway, I'm not advocating systemd, just wondering what's so terrible about systemd-homed.
it sounds like what's terrible about systend-homed is that it's systemd!
f.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST) Felmon Davis scripsit:
[...]
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
There are hords of resons.
many of the reasons you cite go beyond my technical knowledge but I'll
venture comments on a couple:
- security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in.
Well, that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor your home is now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day ...
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer 'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather, I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is compromised.
and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry, I can't find the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
quoted from E.Liddell's earlier post: ########### The target audience here isn't home users, it's business and education setups where the users are (understandably) not trusted by the sysadmin. It's the businesses that pay Red Hat's bills, so naturally they cater to them. ###########
I think that he made that point, and I agree. The promise of "a personal computer in every home" seems to have been pushed aside in deference to the needs of business. If home users can make it work, no problem, it's free; but developers generally don't think of home users any more, because anybody who is interested in computers (in the way we discuss these matters here) already works in the field.
I am guessing that at least 3/4 of our mailing list are people who work in the field, or that they are not the sort of person we usually imagine as "home users".
- TRhis problem was solved when? 40 years ago? When was it,
NFS+yellowpages was introduced?
I have no idea. will have to look this up.
sometime.
- It does not address at all the problems of different hardware and
different OS. You can share your home on any *nix system you like - if you are a bit coutious - without systemd-homed. You cannot any more when you use systemd-homed.
I don't follow. even rsync-ing to another computer may involve some fix-ups as Kate expressly indicated. you are saying once installed by 'systemd-homed' I cannot fix configuration files in 'home'?
- WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd. Remember the "benefits" of
binary logfiles? 5) "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned" than anything else.
Nik
I don't use systemd or at least didn't until it cropped up in my install of MX and 4QOS but I think that's minimalistic.
anyway, I'm not advocating systemd, just wondering what's so terrible about systemd-homed.
it sounds like what's terrible about systend-homed is that it's systemd!
f.
I think Michael's post encapsulated what is wrong with homed (quoting what he himself mostly quotes): ########### Quote: "All user-specific records are stored within a JSON formatted file called ~/.identity which is cryptographically signed with a key out of the users control."
.."out of the users control"... Quote-End:
Welcome to Big Brother?
Seriously, homed says my data is not mine. Worse, if homed borks, then I've lost ALL my data.
This reply from the linked article, also seems to be relevent:
Quote:
systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory
if there is a conflict.
Riiiiight.
I'm supposed to trust you to know what my home directory permissions are supposed to be?
Are you fucking crazy?" Quote-End:
Background on this is that, especially in a developer's system, it's frequent to have files owned by different users and groups within your home. homed is just going to overwrite all that. ###########
Just trying to bring the different views together in one place.
Bill
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On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST) Felmon Davis scripsit:
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer 'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather, I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is compromised.
and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry, I can't find the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
quoted from E.Liddell's earlier post: ########### The target audience here isn't home users, it's business and education setups where the users are (understandably) not trusted by the sysadmin
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 13:48:45 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST) Felmon Davis scripsit:
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer 'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather, I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is compromised.
and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry, I can't find the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
quoted from E.Liddell's earlier post: ########### The target audience here isn't home users, it's business and education setups where the users are (understandably) not trusted by the sysadmin. It's the businesses that pay Red Hat's bills, so naturally they cater to them. ###########
exactly, thank you and apologies to E. Liddell.
it sounds like what's terrible about systend-homed is that it's systemd!
f.
I think Michael's post encapsulated what is wrong with homed (quoting what he himself mostly quotes): ########### Quote: "All user-specific records are stored within a JSON formatted file called ~/.identity which is cryptographically signed with a key out of the users control."
..."out of the users control"... Quote-End:
Welcome to Big Brother?
but this mirrors my situation on my system: I am 'user' and there is 'root'; a lot of things are "out of the user's control" on my systems though, of course, I can change my hat and become 'root'.
but maybe that's not what's going on with systemd-homed.
Seriously, homed says my data is not mine. Worse, if homed borks, then I've lost ALL my data.
This reply from the linked article, also seems to be relevent:
Quote:
systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory
if there is a conflict.
Riiiiight.
I'm supposed to trust you to know what my home directory permissions are supposed to be?
gawd, I don't really want to defend a program I don't know or understand but no, you are supposed to trust *yourself* to know what your home permissions are.
Are you fucking crazy?"
yes, but now we're off-topic again.
How do you know you're crazy (or even effin crazy)?
In my experience, those few who are really crazy (in the sense of "out-of-touch with reality") tend to occupy positions of great power and wealth, especially in government, business and the like.
Do you work in one of those fields? If not, you're probably not as crazy as you are being told.
Bill
Quote-End:
Background on this is that, especially in a developer's system, it's frequent to have files owned by different users and groups within your home. homed is just going to overwrite all that. ###########
thus it seems this is not the intended 'use-case'.
Just trying to bring the different views together in one place.
thank you, this was helpful, provided context.
f.
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On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 13:48:45 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Are you fucking crazy?"
yes, but now we're off-topic again.
How do you know you're crazy (or even effin crazy)?
In my experience, those few who are really crazy (in the sense of "out-of-touch with reality") tend to occupy positions of great power and wealth, especially in government, business and the like.
or imagine they do.
Do you work in one of those fields? If not, you're probably not as crazy as you are being told.
maybe you're right. will see what my wife says.
f.
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 15:42:41 Felmon Davis via tde-users wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 13:48:45 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Are you fucking crazy?"
yes, but now we're off-topic again.
How do you know you're crazy (or even effin crazy)?
In my experience, those few who are really crazy (in the sense of "out-of-touch with reality") tend to occupy positions of great power and wealth, especially in government, business and the like.
or imagine they do.
Do you work in one of those fields? If not, you're probably not as crazy as you are being told.
maybe you're right. will see what my wife says.
f.
Oooh. Bad move. Never ask your significant other questions about your sanity.
You will definitely discover that you are crazy; either that, or stupid, or both. She knows you better than anybody else, except of course your mother.
Bill
Anno domini 2020 Tue, 15 Sep 15:53:46 -0700 William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 15:42:41 Felmon Davis via tde-users wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 13:48:45 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via trinity-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:09:27 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Are you fucking crazy?"
yes, but now we're off-topic again.
How do you know you're crazy (or even effin crazy)?
In my experience, those few who are really crazy (in the sense of "out-of-touch with reality") tend to occupy positions of great power and wealth, especially in government, business and the like.
or imagine they do.
Do you work in one of those fields? If not, you're probably not as crazy as you are being told.
maybe you're right. will see what my wife says.
f.
Oooh. Bad move. Never ask your significant other questions about your sanity.
You will definitely discover that you are crazy; either that, or stupid, or both. She knows you better than anybody else, except of course your mother.
Hm ... I think I live in a family of lunatics :)
Bill ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
Anno domini 20:09:27 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST) Felmon Davis via tde-users scripsit:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST) Felmon Davis scripsit:
[...]
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
There are hords of resons.
many of the reasons you cite go beyond my technical knowledge but I'll venture comments on a couple:
(I need more popcorn .. and a spellchecker)
- security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in.
Well, that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor your home is now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day ...
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer 'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather, I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is compromised.
Which raises the question: why would a user wander with his home on a stick from computer to computer? For "security"? His/Her home an be stolen, lost, corrupted ... for what? To "ease" backup? Definitly not. That was why NFS was invented. DJs with floppies in their hands preceded NFS. I thought that times were dead for good.
and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry, I can't find the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
Yes, I can vividly imagine some suits not carring their Notebooks around but USB flashdives .. no, won't happen. Companies have servers - there is a reason why these bethelemoths are named that way. Campus/university? Nop, neither that. Everybody has his/her notebook ... oh, maybe it is intended to use a home on the phone and plug that thing as USB flashdrive .. no, won't happen either, we had that problem on the list earlier.
- TRhis problem was solved when? 40 years ago? When was it, NFS+yellowpages was introduced?
I have no idea. will have to look this up.
1984 that was. What a magical number, so full of inspiration.
sometime.
- It does not address at all the problems of different hardware and
different OS. You can share your home on any *nix system you like - if you are a bit coutious - without systemd-homed. You cannot any more when you use systemd-homed.
I don't follow. even rsync-ing to another computer may involve some fix-ups as Kate expressly indicated. you are saying once installed by 'systemd-homed' I cannot fix configuration files in 'home'?
You can. But then you have to fix systemd-homed before (remember that JSON file), 'cause sooner or later some genus will find out about "user groups", and will start to "fix" that, too. And each run of "chown ..." will change the entire home directory, so your flashdrive will like it.
- WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd. Remember the "benefits" of binary logfiles?
- "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned" than anything else.
Nik
I don't use systemd or at least didn't until it cropped up in my install of MX and 4QOS but I think that's minimalistic.
If you have only "libsystemd0" it's ok, if you have systemd as init .. you remeber "svchost" from windows?
anyway, I'm not advocating systemd, just wondering what's so terrible about systemd-homed.
It solves a problem that does not exist since 1984. It solves it in a way that it breaks onlmost anything but the most simple usecase - and there it's not needed in the first place.
it sounds like what's terrible about systend-homed is that it's systemd!
Knowinf the origin of a software often gives a strong hint on what to expect. And yes, comming from systemd is alost the same nogo as comming from gnome.
Nik
f.
On 2020-09-15 13:39:42 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 20:09:27 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST)
Felmon Davis via tde-users scripsit:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 18:08:23 Tue, 15 Sep 2020 +0200 (CEST) Felmon Davis scripsit:
[...]
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
There are hords of resons.
many of the reasons you cite go beyond my technical knowledge but I'll venture comments on a couple:
(I need more popcorn .. and a spellchecker)
- security relies on trust into the computer you plug your home in.
Well, that's a bad plan to begin with. System is compromised, sor your home is now compromised, too. And becaus of the ease to do, you compromomise all systems you go to that day and the next day ...
I guess it depends on the intended use-case. if I want to transfer 'home' to another one of my computers, there is no problem or rather, I already had a problem if the computer I'm transferring to is compromised.
Which raises the question: why would a user wander with his home on a stick from computer to computer? For "security"? His/Her home an be stolen, lost, corrupted ... for what? To "ease" backup? Definitly not. That was why NFS was invented. DJs with floppies in their hands preceded NFS. I thought that times were dead for good.
and as someone pointed out further down-thread (sorry, I can't find the msg!) this may be suitable to a business environment.
Yes, I can vividly imagine some suits not carring their Notebooks around but USB flashdives .. no, won't happen. Companies have servers - there is a reason why these bethelemoths are named that way. Campus/university? Nop, neither that. Everybody has his/her notebook ... oh, maybe it is intended to use a home on the phone and plug that thing as USB flashdrive .. no, won't happen either, we had that problem on the list earlier.
- TRhis problem was solved when? 40 years ago? When was it,
NFS+yellowpages was introduced?
I have no idea. will have to look this up.
1984 that was. What a magical number, so full of inspiration.
sometime.
- It does not address at all the problems of different hardware and
different OS. You can share your home on any *nix system you like - if you are a bit coutious - without systemd-homed. You cannot any more when you use systemd-homed.
I don't follow. even rsync-ing to another computer may involve some fix-ups as Kate expressly indicated. you are saying once installed by 'systemd-homed' I cannot fix configuration files in 'home'?
You can. But then you have to fix systemd-homed before (remember that JSON file), 'cause sooner or later some genus will find out about "user groups", and will start to "fix" that, too. And each run of "chown ..." will change the entire home directory, so your flashdrive will like it.
- WTF encrypted JSON? This is soooo systemd. Remember the "benefits"
of binary logfiles? 5) "systemd-homed" looks more like "systemd-owned" than anything else.
Nik
I don't use systemd or at least didn't until it cropped up in my install of MX and 4QOS but I think that's minimalistic.
If you have only "libsystemd0" it's ok, if you have systemd as init .. you remeber "svchost" from windows?
anyway, I'm not advocating systemd, just wondering what's so terrible about systemd-homed.
It solves a problem that does not exist since 1984. It solves it in a way that it breaks onlmost anything but the most simple usecase - and there it's not needed in the first place.
it sounds like what's terrible about systend-homed is that it's systemd!
Knowinf the origin of a software often gives a strong hint on what to expect. And yes, comming from systemd is alost the same nogo as comming from gnome.
Nik
f.
homed looks to me like another cure in search of a disease, much like the semantic search "improvements" added in various desktops that made them mostly unresponsive. As Victor Borge said of his uncle the inventor, "He discovered the cure for which there was no disease. Unfortunately, he later caught the cure and died." :-)
Leslie
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:08:23 am Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered; how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
Quote: "All user-specific records are stored within a JSON formatted file called ~/.identity which is cryptographically signed with a key out of the users control."
..."out of the users control"... Quote-End:
Welcome to Big Brother?
Seriously, homed says my data is not mine. Worse, if homed borks, then I've lost ALL my data.
This reply from the linked article, also seems to be relevent:
Quote:
systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory
if there is a conflict.
Riiiiight.
I'm supposed to trust you to know what my home directory permissions are supposed to be?
Are you fucking crazy?" Quote-End:
Background on this is that, especially in a developer's system, it's frequent to have files owned by different users and groups within your home. homed is just going to overwrite all that.
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 11:35:30 -0500 Michael via tde-users ml-migration-agent@trinitydesktop.org wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 11:08:23 am Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstrüdel must be considered; how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
Quote: "All user-specific records are stored within a JSON formatted file called ~/.identity which is cryptographically signed with a key out of the users control."
.."out of the users control"... Quote-End:
Welcome to Big Brother?
Seriously, homed says my data is not mine. Worse, if homed borks, then I've lost ALL my data.
The target audience here isn't home users, it's business and education setups where the users are (understandably) not trusted by the sysadmin. It's the businesses that pay Red Hat's bills, so naturally they cater to them.
It's unfortunate that some distros force solutions intended for enterprise environments down the throats of home users without stopping to think about whether it's a good idea, but that's the way of the world. (See also: systemd itself, ldap, etc. etc. ad nauseum).
E. Liddell
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On Tuesday 15 September 2020 09:08:23 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstr�del must be considered; how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
f.
I agree, lots of thread drift here. We really ought to start a new thread once we get into philosophy and politics and stuff.
For me, the jury is still out on homed, at least as a concept. All those benefits do seem double-plus good and all. What I don't like is systemd, because it was thrust upon us without consent, over the objections of many developers themselves, and goes directly against the philosophy of Debian (too much explanation required here).
Maybe it is a good thing; some seem to think so, but systemd takes control away from users themselves, in many small ways. I don't like it myself mainly because my system doesn't run so well with systemd.
And, if I read correctly, you can't get homed without systemd. But homed, which does sound good in so many ways, will somehow (I suspect) be used to get people using systemd.
Maybe there is somebody who is already thinking of a systemd-free homed system? Is it possible?
Again, if you are content with what you have, then it's hard for me to argue that you [the universal you] ought to be doing something different, just because, in my opinion, it's better or more secure or whatever. If you like what you have, and don't want to change, then just keep shining on.
Bill
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
I agree, lots of thread drift here. We really ought to start a new thread once we get into philosophy and politics and stuff.
For me, the jury is still out on homed, at least as a concept. All those benefits do seem double-plus good and all. What I don't like is systemd, because it was thrust upon us without consent, over the objections of many developers themselves, and goes directly against the philosophy of Debian (too much explanation required here).
Maybe it is a good thing; some seem to think so, but systemd takes control away from users themselves, in many small ways. I don't like it myself mainly because my system doesn't run so well with systemd.
I have only minimalistic use of systemd so I don't know beyond things I read online.
accordingly, I haven't noticed how control is taken away except insofar as I am not familiar with its ways and means so there's a whole new 'language' to learn.
but as you indicate, this takes us into a wide and deep discussion of the philosophy and politics of systemd and of (l)unix. we needn't plunge into that here.
I think sometime I'll get all systemd-ed up on a laptop and get a feel for it.
f.
On 2020-09-15 11:53:52 William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 09:08:23 Felmon Davis wrote:
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
Better not to give in to conspiracy-theory thinking here. I believe a simpler proportion is at work.
The more money, property or power is involved, the greater the degree of corruption. Who was it that said it? Lord Acton? "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Corruption creeps in by small degrees. It starts with somebody offering front-row seats at some special, exclusive event, or just being given "free money" or other unearned bonuses and perks.
In all this technophobic conspiracy thinking, there is a simpler principle at work. People who are in business want to know who are their customers. (It makes more sense in a small business, where we meet in person.) When we move into situations where the people in business never actually meet most of their customers, they must find other ways to get to "know" them. At first, I'm sure, they mean well, and only want to serve the needs and wants of people who buy or use their goods and services; but as the company and customer base grows, and as competition also increases, then comes the need for greater control.
And now, we the users are not even really exactly "customers" or "clients", but just use what we get for free; and because it's free, of course, we are taught that we should not complain or make demands, but just be grateful.
In the end, we, the customers, users, renters (whatever our situation) become the least important part; in fact, an obstacle to doing business. What the business person would prefer, really, is just to withdraw money directly from our accounts, without any interaction from ourselves. But this is only because doing business in person is becoming a rare occasion any more.
Bill
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstr�del must be considered; how does this relate to systemd-homed?
it seems systemd-homed brings precisely the benefit which Kate mentioned is lacking in our usual way of moving 'home'; she wrote:
"I don't understand why this is even needed?! I can already move home directories without a problem. Been doing it for years. I just make sure to use the same user on the same distro, same etc. Works perfectly. Or I save key settings (konq bookmarks, FF bms, etc) it's so easy after that to just retheme to spec."
I take it with systemd-homed one doesn't get trapped by shifting UIDs and such. they write (partial quotation),
"Linux assigns UIDs in the order usernames are registered on a machine. you may get UID 1000 if you are the first user on a laptop and you could get 1001 on another laptop if you are the second user to be registered there. This poses a problem if you move a home directory container from machine A where you're UID 1000 to machine B where you are 1001. systemd-homed solves this by doing a chown -R on the entire home directory if there is a conflict. [...]"
I once fell athwart of that! not to mention that 'home' gets encrypted.
why isn't this a net bonus?
f.
I agree, lots of thread drift here. We really ought to start a new thread once we get into philosophy and politics and stuff.
For me, the jury is still out on homed, at least as a concept. All those benefits do seem double-plus good and all. What I don't like is systemd, because it was thrust upon us without consent, over the objections of many developers themselves, and goes directly against the philosophy of Debian (too much explanation required here).
Maybe it is a good thing; some seem to think so, but systemd takes control away from users themselves, in many small ways. I don't like it myself mainly because my system doesn't run so well with systemd.
And, if I read correctly, you can't get homed without systemd. But homed, which does sound good in so many ways, will somehow (I suspect) be used to get people using systemd.
Maybe there is somebody who is already thinking of a systemd-free homed system? Is it possible?
Again, if you are content with what you have, then it's hard for me to argue that you [the universal you] ought to be doing something different, just because, in my opinion, it's better or more secure or whatever. If you like what you have, and don't want to change, then just keep shining on.
Bill
Hopefully, homed will not be so deeply intertwined into other things that one cannot simply delete it from the system if one so chooses.
Leslie
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 09:08:23 Felmon Davis wrote:
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstr�del must be considered;
By the way, I will not permit any retraction of offers of baked goods, including apfelstrudel, cookies, and whatever else may be served with it, such as ice cream or a glass of milk.
Bill
Anno domini 2020 Tue, 15 Sep 10:47:03 -0700 William Morder via tde-users scripsit:
On Tuesday 15 September 2020 09:08:23 Felmon Davis wrote:
there may be truth in some of this but it seems a bit like thread-drift - perhaps retraction of apfelstr�del must be considered;
By the way, I will not permit any retraction of offers of baked goods, including apfelstrudel, cookies, and whatever else may be served with it, such as ice cream or a glass of milk.
So sad. On the other hand, icecream will most likely melt and apfelstrudel will already have gotten appels itself before it reaches your site ... but I can offer Lebkuchen (aka gingerbread), made it yesterday. I suspect some of the other human beeings here have found the jar - it's so much lighter now ...
Nik
Bill
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