On Sunday 03 February 2019 19.21:34 phiebie@drei.at wrote:
Debian Buster, KDE 3.5.10. aptitude As more and more software-updates clash with their dependencies against what KDE needs or provides, I wanted to install trinity, preliminary stable, alongside KDE. KDE should stay operational till I had transferred my settings and programs aso to trinity. No go! Tdebase was fetched and seemingly installed, but when I restarted the computer and wanted to start KDE, there was only a black screen with the mouse-cursor and whatever I did with keyboard or mouse, nothing happened. Cold reboot to clear memory, same thing. Okay, let's then have a look at trinity. A blue screen with the logo appeared and after a few seconds something like "no ..... available check your installation"and I only could close that window via a warm reboot. KDE gave me the black screen again and also TDE said "check installation". Installed TDE again, same results as before. Half an afternoon had passed with no desktop still available. Glad, that I had backupped my system before the experiment and could restore my working KDE. So there's also a clash between TDE and KDE, incredible! Where should I look for the culprit for this disaster? Kind regards.
OK, so...
a) You say Buster. Where did you install TDE from? What version? As far as I know, for Buster you need the premilinary builds.
b) You say KDE 3.5.10. I seem to remember that install instructions said to purge any KDE 3.5 elements befor install. So yes, KDE 3.5 and TDE clash. It's known. I guess that's because thes share files with the same name, but different contents.
If you want Trinity, you should better install on a system with no KDE, and running a testing TDE on a testing Debian, I'm not really surprised you encounter some problems.
These are caused by your environment, not by Trinity itself.
Thierry
On Sunday 03 February 2019 14:05:36 Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Sunday 03 February 2019 19.21:34 phiebie@drei.at wrote:
Debian Buster, KDE 3.5.10. aptitude As more and more software-updates clash with their dependencies against what KDE needs or provides, I wanted to install trinity, preliminary stable, alongside KDE. KDE should stay operational till I had transferred my settings and programs aso to trinity. No go! Tdebase was fetched and seemingly installed, but when I restarted the computer and wanted to start KDE, there was only a black screen with the mouse-cursor and whatever I did with keyboard or mouse, nothing happened. Cold reboot to clear memory, same thing. Okay, let's then have a look at trinity. A blue screen with the logo appeared and after a few seconds something like "no ..... available check your installation"and I only could close that window via a warm reboot. KDE gave me the black screen again and also TDE said "check installation". Installed TDE again, same results as before. Half an afternoon had passed with no desktop still available. Glad, that I had backupped my system before the experiment and could restore my working KDE. So there's also a clash between TDE and KDE, incredible! Where should I look for the culprit for this disaster? Kind regards.
OK, so...
a) You say Buster. Where did you install TDE from? What version? As far as I know, for Buster you need the premilinary builds.
b) You say KDE 3.5.10. I seem to remember that install instructions said to purge any KDE 3.5 elements befor install. So yes, KDE 3.5 and TDE clash. It's known. I guess that's because thes share files with the same name, but different contents.
If you want Trinity, you should better install on a system with no KDE, and running a testing TDE on a testing Debian, I'm not really surprised you encounter some problems.
These are caused by your environment, not by Trinity itself.
Thierry
Also I think that he might have better luck in trying Debian that is not quite so bleeding-edge as Buster; maybe Stretch or Jessie?
FWIW, I am running Devuan Jessie with Trinity R14.0.6. Most of my issues have disappeared since switching to Devuan (and prying myself free of systemd). I recommend the netinstall disc, for me it worked better than their DVD.
Unlike some others here, I do occasionally use the KDE desktop, as well as MATE, so I usually have them both installed, but rarely boot into them except for troubleshooting, or for certain features that I can't get to work in TDE (such as syncing my smartphone). But it is very rare nowadays that I ever go into those other desktops, and I could do without them except for once in a blue moon when nothing works right.
Someday I hope to see TDE pre-installed on a Devuan disc (and not ExeGNU, which for me at least, doesn't work), but for now at least this setup works pretty well.
Bill
On Sunday 03 February 2019 06:39:51 pm William Morder wrote:
FWIW, I am running Devuan Jessie with Trinity R14.0.6. Most of my issues have disappeared since switching to Devuan (and prying myself free of systemd). I recommend the netinstall disc, for me it worked better than their DVD.
I truly hate to say negative things about anything, but as an FYI Devuan had/has a bug with unmounting LUKS root partitions (and possibly all encrypted partitions, but I didn’t test for that after seeing root shutdown unclean) which will eventually cause file system corruption. If you’re not using disk encryption then this doesn’t apply and Devuan works basically just like Debian.
Best, Michael
On Sunday 03 February 2019 17:14:00 Michael wrote:
On Sunday 03 February 2019 06:39:51 pm William Morder wrote:
FWIW, I am running Devuan Jessie with Trinity R14.0.6. Most of my issues have disappeared since switching to Devuan (and prying myself free of systemd). I recommend the netinstall disc, for me it worked better than their DVD.
I truly hate to say negative things about anything, but as an FYI Devuan had/has a bug with unmounting LUKS root partitions (and possibly all encrypted partitions, but I didn’t test for that after seeing root shutdown unclean) which will eventually cause file system corruption. If you’re not using disk encryption then this doesn’t apply and Devuan works basically just like Debian.
Best, Michael
Thanks for the heads-up. I have not got to disk encryption on this machine yet, but I am about to resuscitate a laptop and network them, at which point I was about to try all kinds of fancy stuff. So this is good to know.
When you say "root shutdown unclean": How do you shutdown, and what are you seeing?
If my opinion, at least on my own machines, Devuan works far better than Debian ever did for me. Yeah, they run about the same; except that Debian would hang sometimes for hours, and I would be stuck here like a fly in a spider web.
Bill
Hi Michael,
Am Montag, 4. Februar 2019 schrieb Michael:
On Sunday 03 February 2019 06:39:51 pm William Morder wrote:
FWIW, I am running Devuan Jessie with Trinity R14.0.6. Most of my issues have disappeared since switching to Devuan (and prying myself free of systemd). I recommend the netinstall disc, for me it worked better than their DVD.
I truly hate to say negative things about anything, but as an FYI Devuan had/has a bug with unmounting LUKS root partitions (and possibly all encrypted partitions, but I didn’t test for that after seeing root shutdown unclean) which will eventually cause file system corruption.
Can you point to a reference for this bug?
I have a setup with the root partition in a logical Volume of LVM on top of LUKS (whole disk but /boot) and haven't seen such problems as file system corruptions yet.
I am seeing messages during shutdown like this, though, which are indicating a known bug in Debian's cryptsetup package¹, which is used by Devuan:
Stopping remaining crypt disks...sda2_crypt(busy)
Did you mean this bug/error? There's a patch which solves it², but I don't know if it already was merged in the official repositories.
Kind regards, Stefan
[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=720340 and https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=7675#p7675 [2] https://bugs.devuan.org//cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=237
On Sunday 03 February 2019 04:05:36 pm Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Sunday 03 February 2019 19.21:34 phiebie@drei.at wrote:
Debian Buster, KDE 3.5.10. aptitude As more and more software-updates clash with their dependencies against what KDE needs or provides, I wanted to install trinity, preliminary stable, alongside KDE. KDE should stay operational till I had transferred my settings and programs aso to trinity. No go! Tdebase was fetched and seemingly installed, but when I restarted the computer and wanted to start KDE, there was only a black screen with the mouse-cursor and whatever I did with keyboard or mouse, nothing happened. Cold reboot to clear memory, same thing. Okay, let's then have a look at trinity. A blue screen with the logo appeared and after a few seconds something like "no ..... available check your installation"and I only could close that window via a warm reboot. KDE gave me the black screen again and also TDE said "check installation". Installed TDE again, same results as before. Half an afternoon had passed with no desktop still available. Glad, that I had backupped my system before the experiment and could restore my working KDE. So there's also a clash between TDE and KDE, incredible! Where should I look for the culprit for this disaster? Kind regards.
OK, so...
a) You say Buster. Where did you install TDE from? What version? As far as I know, for Buster you need the premilinary builds.
b) You say KDE 3.5.10. I seem to remember that install instructions said to purge any KDE 3.5 elements befor install. So yes, KDE 3.5 and TDE clash. It's known. I guess that's because thes share files with the same name, but different contents.
If you want Trinity, you should better install on a system with no KDE, and running a testing TDE on a testing Debian, I'm not really surprised you encounter some problems.
These are caused by your environment, not by Trinity itself.
Hi phiebie,
Welcome to TDE!
Couple things to add/agree with. Yeah, don’t install KDE 3.x and TDE at the same time, as far as I remember this was never an option? Someone with more experience will need to give deeper instructions but in general:
- If you have $10 to spare, just buy a new HDD and use it for testing. (You can get a 250GB SATA 6GB/s for $7 on Amazon.)
- Do use a copy of your current KDE 3.x home partition or your user folder when you’re installing TDE. Whether you need to install TDE 3.x first then upgrade to TDE 14.x I’m not sure. Doing this will [fairly] seamlessly migrate things like KMail. (Or at least that’s my memory from ~10 years ago when I moved from KDE 3.x to TDE 3.x, which hopefully isn’t wrong.)
- If your looking for an “easy” test of a Debian based OS try MX Linux. It installs well from their Live USB, gives you their default desktop, and then you can add TDE like normal. https://mxlinux.org/
Best, Michael
On Sunday 03 February 2019 17:05:43 Michael wrote:
On Sunday 03 February 2019 04:05:36 pm Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Sunday 03 February 2019 19.21:34 phiebie@drei.at wrote:
Debian Buster, KDE 3.5.10. aptitude As more and more software-updates clash with their dependencies against what KDE needs or provides, I wanted to install trinity, preliminary stable, alongside KDE. KDE should stay operational till I had transferred my settings and programs aso to trinity. No go! Tdebase was fetched and seemingly installed, but when I restarted the computer and wanted to start KDE, there was only a black screen with the mouse-cursor and whatever I did with keyboard or mouse, nothing happened. Cold reboot to clear memory, same thing. Okay, let's then have a look at trinity. A blue screen with the logo appeared and after a few seconds something like "no ..... available check your installation"and I only could close that window via a warm reboot. KDE gave me the black screen again and also TDE said "check installation". Installed TDE again, same results as before. Half an afternoon had passed with no desktop still available. Glad, that I had backupped my system before the experiment and could restore my working KDE. So there's also a clash between TDE and KDE, incredible! Where should I look for the culprit for this disaster? Kind regards.
OK, so...
a) You say Buster. Where did you install TDE from? What version? As far as I know, for Buster you need the premilinary builds.
b) You say KDE 3.5.10. I seem to remember that install instructions said to purge any KDE 3.5 elements befor install. So yes, KDE 3.5 and TDE clash. It's known. I guess that's because thes share files with the same name, but different contents.
Yes, I didn't mean to try both KDE3 and TDE as desktops for the same installation. Maybe I misread; I thought he meant KDE4 or beyond, along side TDE. Yes, KDE3 will screw you up.
However, I have done a dual boot, with KDE3 (Hardy Heron 8.04.2) on a separate partition, and TDE and some other DEs on the other partition; and that worked pretty well. My reason for running KDE3 in Hardy is that it was my most stable system, and I wanted to modify KDE3 settings to work in TDE.
Oh, and an aside for Michael: I have managed to sift through my settings, and my current machine is *almost* exactly, perfectly, like my old KDE3 Hardy box; only better in many ways.
I only have a few minor bugs at present, the worst of which seem to be some networking issues; but even that is improving incrementally, at the same speed that grass grows and paint dries.
If you want Trinity, you should better install on a system with no KDE, and running a testing TDE on a testing Debian, I'm not really surprised you encounter some problems.
These are caused by your environment, not by Trinity itself.
Hi phiebie,
Welcome to TDE!
Couple things to add/agree with. Yeah, don’t install KDE 3.x and TDE at the same time, as far as I remember this was never an option? Someone with more experience will need to give deeper instructions but in general:
- If you have $10 to spare, just buy a new HDD and use it for testing.
(You can get a 250GB SATA 6GB/s for $7 on Amazon.)
- Do use a copy of your current KDE 3.x home partition or your user folder
when you’re installing TDE. Whether you need to install TDE 3.x first then upgrade to TDE 14.x I’m not sure. Doing this will [fairly] seamlessly migrate things like KMail. (Or at least that’s my memory from ~10 years ago when I moved from KDE 3.x to TDE 3.x, which hopefully isn’t wrong.)
- If your looking for an “easy” test of a Debian based OS try MX Linux. It
installs well from their Live USB, gives you their default desktop, and then you can add TDE like normal. https://mxlinux.org/
Best, Michael
This is a good idea. Or just gut an old desktop or laptop. I have often run a desktop computer, with four internal hard drives, all kinds of peripherals, etc., and all of it running from a 250 GB laptop hdd that I salvaged. In fact, that is what I am running right now.
Bill
Dear Thierry,
Am 03.Feb.2019 um 23:05 schrieben Sie:
I wanted to install trinity, preliminary stable, alongside KDE.
a) You say Buster. Where did you install TDE from? What version? As far as I know, for Buster you need the premilinary builds.
Didn't I write that? And it came from deb http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity-sb buster deps-r14 main-r14
b) You say KDE 3.5.10. I seem to remember that install instructions said to purge any KDE 3.5 elements befor install. So yes, KDE 3.5 and TDE clash. It's known. I guess that's because thes share files with the same name, but different contents.
Wiki.trinity.desktop.org: "TDE will automatically execute a script which will migrate as many of your KDE3/TDE3.5.x settings as possible. At the end of the process, your KDE3/TDE3.5.x profile will still exist (unchanged) and a new TDE profile will have been created inside the ~/.trinity folder." Nowhere is stated, that TDE and KDE can not coexist!
Any more suggestions? Regards.
Am Montag, 4. Februar 2019 schrieb phiebie@drei.at:
Dear Thierry,
Am 03.Feb.2019 um 23:05 schrieben Sie:
I wanted to install trinity, preliminary stable, alongside KDE.
a) You say Buster. Where did you install TDE from? What version? As far as I know, for Buster you need the premilinary builds.
Didn't I write that? And it came from deb http://mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org/trinity-sb buster deps-r14 main-r14
b) You say KDE 3.5.10. I seem to remember that install instructions said to purge any KDE 3.5 elements befor install. So yes, KDE 3.5 and TDE clash. It's known. I guess that's because thes share files with the same name, but different contents.
Wiki.trinity.desktop.org: "TDE will automatically execute a script which will migrate as many of your KDE3/TDE3.5.x settings as possible. At the end of the process, your KDE3/TDE3.5.x profile will still exist (unchanged) and a new TDE profile will have been created inside the ~/.trinity folder."
This is about the user's config files in $HOME/.kde, not about installed packages. You can try to just use your old ~/.kde (kde3!) settings in ~/.trinity. The mentioned script just copies some selected files from one to the other.
Kind regards, Stefan
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512
TDE is a fork of KDE 3.5.x, therefore it is not possible to install TDE and KDE 3.5.x on the same computer since many things would overlap.
If you migrate from 3.5.x, you should follow the instruction from here (but adapt the sources to buster). https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/DebianInstall#Upgrading_from_an_existing_R14...
When you run TDE for the first time, a script will take take of migrating as much settings as possible from your .kde folder to .trinity folder. The original folder will remain intact.
Good to have backup before doing this kind of things, but if you wish to switch to TDE and still have KDE 3.5 installed, you could as well follow the suggestion from another user and use a separate harddisk for TDE in a dual boot system. Or just go for a clean buster install without any DE, then add TDE, copy over your .kde folder and you should be ready to go without conflicts or other things.
Cheers Michele
Hi Michele,
Am 04.Feb.2019 um 22:28 schrieben Sie:
TDE is a fork of KDE 3.5.x, therefore it is not possible to install TDE and KDE 3.5.x on the same computer since many things would overlap.
Maybe (many more). But in the meantime I detected already one nasty thing. TDE-sysguard depends on lm-sensors 3.0.5. But this sensor depends on KDE-sysguard 4.14.5 and the latter removes KDE-sysguard 3.5.10. But the rest of KDE 3.5.10 does not like the new sysguard at all, so crashes. What to do with that dependencies? Overlaps, I don't think so. I remember vaguely, that Slavek once said, that he carefully avoided to use the same names for TDE as they were in KDE.
If you migrate from 3.5.x, you should follow the instruction from here (but adapt the sources to buster). https://wiki.trinitydesktop.org/DebianInstall#Upgrading_from_an_existing_R14...
And that i had followed painstakingly!
follow the suggestion from another user and use a separate harddisk for TDE in a dual boot system. Or just go for a clean buster install without any DE, then add TDE, copy over your .kde folder and you should be ready to go without conflicts or other things.
What a pain in the a.... To copy the whole system with all its settings to another disk:-(( Regards.
Anno domini 2019 Mon, 4 Feb 18:00:07 +0100 phiebie@drei.at scripsit:
Hi Michele, [...]
follow the suggestion from another user and use a separate harddisk for TDE in a dual boot system. Or just go for a clean buster install without any DE, then add TDE, copy over your .kde folder and you should be ready to go without conflicts or other things.
What a pain in the a.... To copy the whole system with all its settings to another disk:-(( Regards.
That process is also known as "make a backup" :-)
Nik
Hi Nikolaus,
Am 04.Feb.2019 um 18:33 schrieben Sie:
What a pain in the a.... To copy the whole system with all its settings to another disk:-(( Regards.
That process is also known as "make a backup" :-)
Wise guy:-) And after restoring, the whole bunch of, at that moment unwanted, KDE3-files is in place again. Please read more carefully. Regards.
Anno domini 2019 Tue, 5 Feb 13:05:27 +0100 phiebie@drei.at scripsit:
Hi Nikolaus,
Am 04.Feb.2019 um 18:33 schrieben Sie:
What a pain in the a.... To copy the whole system with all its settings to another disk:-(( Regards.
That process is also known as "make a backup" :-)
Wise guy:-) And after restoring, the whole bunch of, at that moment unwanted, KDE3-files is in place again. Please read more carefully. Regards.
That's why you should do a backup before picken up the soldereing iron :-)
Nik
phiebie@drei.at wrote:
Maybe (many more). But in the meantime I detected already one nasty thing. TDE-sysguard depends on lm-sensors 3.0.5. But this sensor depends on KDE-sysguard 4.14.5 and the latter removes KDE-sysguard 3.5.10. But the rest of KDE 3.5.10 does not like the new sysguard at all, so crashes. What to do with that dependencies?
I don't see any dependency on lm-sensors in apt-cache show ksysguard-trinity ... ... Depends: libacl1 (>= 2.2.51-8), libattr1 (>= 1:2.4.46-8), libc6 (>= 2.14), libfontconfig1 (>= 2.11), libfreetype6 (>= 2.2.1), libgcc1 (>= 1:3.0), libice6 (>= 1:1.0.0), libidn11 (>= 1.13), libr0, libsm6, libstdc++6 (>= 5), libtqt3-mt (>= 4:14.1.0), libtqtinterface, libx11-6, libxcomposite1 (>= 1:0.3-1), libxext6, libxrender1, tdelibs14-trinity, zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4), ksysguardd-trinity
Overlaps, I don't think so. I remember vaguely, that Slavek once said, that he carefully avoided to use the same names for TDE as they were in KDE.
Please write KDE3 not just KDE. And no, no everything is renamed and will be renamed soon. It has been done for core packages, but many other still use "k"
Last but not least: When I moved to TDE from KDE3 I did it first in a virtual machine to see what needs to be fixed. I took some notes and then did it on the desktop.
Few things were to be done like settings and PIM settings, but in general it was work for perhaps half a day all together.
and it payed off. I do not understand your frustration, honestly!
-
deloptes -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Michael -
Michele Calgaro via trinity-users -
phiebie＠drei.at -
Stefan Krusche -
Thierry de Coulon -
William Morder