On Thursday 07 October 2021 11:05:50 am E. Liddell wrote:
On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:19:05 +0200
"Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" dr.klepp@gmx.at wrote:
Anno domini 2021 Wed, 06 Oct 14:37:41 -0500
Hunter via tde-users scripsit:
I think that the mailing list may not be the best way to reach users, although its certainly more active than the IRC channel. As an alternative, I have a TDE Matrix room if anyone is interested and it needs to grow: #trinity-desktop:halogen.city
I might sound ignorant, but what's a "Matrix room"?
I assume it's an on-line venue accessible through the matrix messaging network (see matrix.org ).
Hey Hunter,
I wandered around matrix.org, and it’s pretty confusing as to what it actually does. Would you mind providing some links that give a good high level summary of what this Matrix thing is? What it provides (is it some variant of forum software?)? What a person would need to do to be able to use it?
And how you envision it being able to replace the TDE mailing lists? (<= I’m assuming that’s what you’re meaning.)
Case in point, this https://matrix.org/docs/guides/introduction might be good for a hardcore geek, but to the average Joe Linux user it’s mostly gobbledygook.
Thanks, Michael
On 10/7/21 12:48 PM, Michael wrote:
Hey Hunter,
I wandered around matrix.org, and it’s pretty confusing as to what it actually does. Would you mind providing some links that give a good high level summary of what this Matrix thing is? What it provides (is it some variant of forum software?)? What a person would need to do to be able to use it?
And how you envision it being able to replace the TDE mailing lists? (<= I’m assuming that’s what you’re meaning.)
Case in point, this https://matrix.org/docs/guides/introduction might be good for a hardcore geek, but to the average Joe Linux user it’s mostly gobbledygook.
Thanks, Michael
In looking at the above page, it reads like it's along the lines of what Zoom and Jitsi offer, live online meetings. Except with Matrix, you use your own server, instead of one that's centralized.
said Michael: | On Thursday 07 October 2021 11:05:50 am E. Liddell wrote: | > On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:19:05 +0200 | > | > "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" dr.klepp@gmx.at wrote: | > > Anno domini 2021 Wed, 06 Oct 14:37:41 -0500 | > > | > > Hunter via tde-users scripsit: | > > > I think that the mailing list may not be the best way to reach | > > > users, although its certainly more active than the IRC channel. As | > > > an alternative, I have a TDE Matrix room if anyone is interested | > > > and it needs to grow: #trinity-desktop:halogen.city | > > | > > I might sound ignorant, but what's a "Matrix room"? | > | > I assume it's an on-line venue accessible through the matrix messaging | > network (see matrix.org ). | | Hey Hunter, | | I wandered around matrix.org, and it’s pretty confusing as to what it | actually does. Would you mind providing some links that give a good | high level summary of what this Matrix thing is? What it provides (is | it some variant of forum software?)? What a person would need to do to | be able to use it? | | And how you envision it being able to replace the TDE mailing lists? (<= | I’m assuming that’s what you’re meaning.) | | Case in point, this https://matrix.org/docs/guides/introduction might be | good for a hardcore geek, but to the average Joe Linux user it’s mostly | gobbledygook. | | Thanks, | Michael
I was in a Matrix room a few years ago, in connection with getting Linux working usably on the Planet Gemini (which it now more or less does), but quit when they changed to an extremely predatory privacy policy.
I do not know the extent to which that would trouble others here, but it kills the deal for me. Which is too bad, because there's a decent Matrix client. -- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
On Thursday 07 October 2021 11:48:35 am Michael wrote:
On Thursday 07 October 2021 11:05:50 am E. Liddell wrote:
On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:19:05 +0200
"Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" dr.klepp@gmx.at wrote:
Anno domini 2021 Wed, 06 Oct 14:37:41 -0500
Hunter via tde-users scripsit:
I think that the mailing list may not be the best way to reach users, although its certainly more active than the IRC channel. As an alternative, I have a TDE Matrix room if anyone is interested and it needs to grow: #trinity-desktop:halogen.city
I might sound ignorant, but what's a "Matrix room"?
I assume it's an on-line venue accessible through the matrix messaging network (see matrix.org ).
Hey Hunter,
I wandered around matrix.org, and it’s pretty confusing as to what it actually does. Would you mind providing some links that give a good high level summary of what this Matrix thing is? What it provides (is it some variant of forum software?)? What a person would need to do to be able to use it?
And how you envision it being able to replace the TDE mailing lists? (<= I’m assuming that’s what you’re meaning.)
Case in point, this https://matrix.org/docs/guides/introduction might be good for a hardcore geek, but to the average Joe Linux user it’s mostly gobbledygook.
Thanks, Michael
Sorry for the late reply, I was having trouble with sending/receiving mail on Kmail but I fixed the issue.
Matrix pretty much does the same thing as Jabber/XMPP, but its main client Element (available on the web and also as a wrapped desktop client on many Linux distributions) makes it like a free and open-source alternative to Discord. If you use Element and treat it as Matrix itself, it's pretty simple to the average Joe. Visit https://element.io/ for that.
(I hope this doesn't trigger that spam filter in your countries).
As Dep said in another email, Matrix and their homeserver matrix.org is pretty untrustworthy. Matrix was funded by Amdocs, a subsidiary of the Mossad from what I heard. Thankfully there are many other homeservers disconnected from the main Matrix group, my personal favorite and what I use to host the TDE room and my account is halogen.city. Use https://halogen.chat/ for their web client (Element).
said Hunter Ellett via tde-users: | On Thursday 07 October 2021 11:48:35 am Michael wrote: | > On Thursday 07 October 2021 11:05:50 am E. Liddell wrote: | > > On Thu, 7 Oct 2021 09:19:05 +0200 | > > | > > "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" dr.klepp@gmx.at wrote: | > > > Anno domini 2021 Wed, 06 Oct 14:37:41 -0500 | > > > | > > > Hunter via tde-users scripsit: | > > > > I think that the mailing list may not be the best way to reach | > > > > users, although its certainly more active than the IRC channel. | > > > > As an alternative, I have a TDE Matrix room if anyone is | > > > > interested and it needs to grow: #trinity-desktop:halogen.city | > > > | > > > I might sound ignorant, but what's a "Matrix room"? | > > | > > I assume it's an on-line venue accessible through the matrix | > > messaging network (see matrix.org ). | > | > Hey Hunter, | > | > I wandered around matrix.org, and it’s pretty confusing as to what it | > actually does. Would you mind providing some links that give a good | > high level summary of what this Matrix thing is? What it provides (is | > it some variant of forum software?)? What a person would need to do | > to be able to use it? | > | > And how you envision it being able to replace the TDE mailing lists? | > (<= I’m assuming that’s what you’re meaning.) | > | > Case in point, this https://matrix.org/docs/guides/introduction might | > be good for a hardcore geek, but to the average Joe Linux user it’s | > mostly gobbledygook. | > | > Thanks, | > Michael | | Sorry for the late reply, I was having trouble with sending/receiving | mail on Kmail but I fixed the issue. | | Matrix pretty much does the same thing as Jabber/XMPP, but its main | client Element (available on the web and also as a wrapped desktop | client on many Linux distributions) makes it like a free and open-source | alternative to Discord. If you use Element and treat it as Matrix | itself, it's pretty simple to the average Joe. Visit https://element.io/ | for that. | | (I hope this doesn't trigger that spam filter in your countries). | | As Dep said in another email, Matrix and their homeserver matrix.org is | pretty untrustworthy. Matrix was funded by Amdocs, a subsidiary of the | Mossad from what I heard. Thankfully there are many other homeservers | disconnected from the main Matrix group, my personal favorite and what I | use to host the TDE room and my account is halogen.city. Use | https://halogen.chat/ for their web client (Element).
I'm still a little puzzled. How does this differ from the Riot Matrix application that some of us might already have?
It was a little worrisome to see this on the Element page: "Element is incredibly proud to build in the open, sharing almost all of our own code with everyone." Almost? -- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
It was a little worrisome to see this on the Element page: "Element is incredibly proud to build in the open, sharing almost all of our own code with everyone." Almost? -- dep
Such statements are in the same league as "almost innocent" or "almost a virgin": good enough for many, but some of us are difficult and choosy.
Bill
On Friday 08 October 2021 11:14:04 am William Morder via tde-users wrote:
It was a little worrisome to see this on the Element page: "Element is incredibly proud to build in the open, sharing almost all of our own code with everyone." Almost? -- dep
Such statements are in the same league as "almost innocent" or "almost a virgin": good enough for many, but some of us are difficult and choosy.
Yeah, I think we can drop the thought of using Matrix stuff...
Does anyone know if https://www.phpbb.com/ has these same issue? I see it in use by open source type groups and I could host it on one of my hot backup servers. Granted we'd a few people on the group to step up as Admin's and Mod's too.
Well, if the thought of changing to a forum from the mailing list appeals to the group that is...
Best, Michael
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, Michael wrote:
Well, if the thought of changing to a forum from the mailing list appeals to the group that is...
Anyone consider groups.io ? --- which each member can use as either a mailing list and/or a forum for the group(s).
Jonesy
On Friday 08 October 2021 10:04:11 Marvin Jones via tde-users wrote:
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, Michael wrote:
Well, if the thought of changing to a forum from the mailing list appeals to the group that is...
Anyone consider groups.io ? --- which each member can use as either a mailing list and/or a forum for the group(s).
Jonesy
I never really got into IRC, etc., but can't xmpp/jabber be used for this kind of thing? If so, why should we try to reinvent the wheel?
And obviously I never did Zoom and that stuff, but I do think that a forum would be a good idea, so that we can keep the mailing list more strictly on-topic.
Bill
said William Morder via tde-users: | On Friday 08 October 2021 10:04:11 Marvin Jones via tde-users wrote: | > On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, Michael wrote: | > >Well, if the thought of changing to a forum from the mailing list | > >appeals to the group that is... | > | > Anyone consider groups.io ? --- which each member can use as either | > a mailing list and/or a forum for the group(s). | > | > Jonesy | | I never really got into IRC, etc., but can't xmpp/jabber be used for | this kind of thing? If so, why should we try to reinvent the wheel? | | And obviously I never did Zoom and that stuff, but I do think that a | forum would be a good idea, so that we can keep the mailing list more | strictly on-topic.
A forum comes with its own wad of problems. Trying to remember the problem that we're hoping to solve. Is it some messages being bounced because of faulty spam filters, or something else?
IRC can be useful, though not as a mailing list replacement, and, again, only if the problems attendant to *that* method are handled. -- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
On Friday 08 October 2021 10:16:44 dep wrote:
said William Morder via tde-users: | On Friday 08 October 2021 10:04:11 Marvin Jones via tde-users wrote: | > On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, Michael wrote: | > >Well, if the thought of changing to a forum from the mailing list | > >appeals to the group that is... | > | > Anyone consider groups.io ? --- which each member can use as either | > a mailing list and/or a forum for the group(s). | > | > Jonesy | | I never really got into IRC, etc., but can't xmpp/jabber be used for | this kind of thing? If so, why should we try to reinvent the wheel? | | And obviously I never did Zoom and that stuff, but I do think that a | forum would be a good idea, so that we can keep the mailing list more | strictly on-topic.
A forum comes with its own wad of problems. Trying to remember the problem that we're hoping to solve. Is it some messages being bounced because of faulty spam filters, or something else?
IRC can be useful, though not as a mailing list replacement, and, again, only if the problems attendant to *that* method are handled. -- dep
I don't propose getting rid of the mailing list; just that off-topic rants (for example) can be routed to the forum (IRC or whatever), so that the list can be kept more technical and probably more on-topic.
It could instantly deflate the occasional conflicts that we have, which are often more like broad personality differences (e.g., techies versus others).
But for now, at least, I would keep the list, too, unless there is some pressing reason otherwise.
Bill
On Friday 08 October 2021 12:28:34 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
But for now, at least, I would keep the list, too, unless there is some pressing reason otherwise.
Problems with the mailing list:
- All email addresses become publicly published on the archival site. - Censorship blocks mails from being submitted to the list. - Everyone gets off topic emails - Everyone gets the spam emails submitted - Since many on the list use [data collecting] mail providers, then all peoples’ emails on the list gets data collected.
Forums do have their own problems. And my personal dislike of this mailing list, first point, is for me mitigated by the fact I create unique emails for every entity I sign up with, but that is possible for only a very small portion of our members.
Nik’s quote, “Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA” is extremely relevant to the last point.
2 cents, Michael
On Friday 08 October 2021 10:50:40 Michael wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2021 12:28:34 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
But for now, at least, I would keep the list, too, unless there is some pressing reason otherwise.
Problems with the mailing list:
- All email addresses become publicly published on the archival site.
- Censorship blocks mails from being submitted to the list.
- Everyone gets off topic emails
- Everyone gets the spam emails submitted
- Since many on the list use [data collecting] mail providers, then all
peoples’ emails on the list gets data collected.
Forums do have their own problems. And my personal dislike of this mailing list, first point, is for me mitigated by the fact I create unique emails for every entity I sign up with, but that is possible for only a very small portion of our members.
Nik’s quote, “Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA” is extremely relevant to the last point.
2 cents, Michael
Agreed on every point. So it's xmpp/jabber, then?
;-)
Bill
On Friday 08 October 2021 12:55:05 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2021 10:50:40 Michael wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2021 12:28:34 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
But for now, at least, I would keep the list, too, unless there is some pressing reason otherwise.
Problems with the mailing list:
- All email addresses become publicly published on the archival site.
- Censorship blocks mails from being submitted to the list.
- Everyone gets off topic emails
- Everyone gets the spam emails submitted
- Since many on the list use [data collecting] mail providers, then all
peoples’ emails on the list gets data collected.
Forums do have their own problems. And my personal dislike of this mailing list, first point, is for me mitigated by the fact I create unique emails for every entity I sign up with, but that is possible for only a very small portion of our members.
Nik’s quote, “Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA” is extremely relevant to the last point.
2 cents, Michael
Agreed on every point. So it's xmpp/jabber, then?
Links Man! What is this jabber thing you speak of?
Truely, I don't care what we use as long as it's easy and removes some of the current issues...
Best, Michael
On Fri, Oct 08, 2021 at 01:07:30PM -0500, Michael wrote:
Agreed on every point. So it's xmpp/jabber, then?
Links Man! What is this jabber thing you speak of?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=xmpp+jabber
It is an instant message, or chat, protocol, like IRC.
Truely, I don't care what we use as long as it's easy and removes some of the current issues...
Chat is easy and removes some of the current issues, while creating some wonderful new issues of its own.
Generally speaking, chat is good for instant responses to tiny questions. If you can ask your question in one sentence, and it can be answered immediately in one sentence, chat is great.
But if it takes more than a few seconds to craft a response, chances are that on a busy chat server, your question will have scrolled off the screen and disappeared, out of sight, out of mind. Email is good for long questions and answers with much detail.
It is technically possible to have a public archive of IRC or jabber messages, but generally chat is considered to be ephemeral:
“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit, Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”
--The prediction of Internet Relay Chat, by Omar Khayyám, c.1100 CE.
*wink*
If people want to experiment with chat, you could check out Libra.Chat:
On October 8, 2021 1:34:11 PM CDT, Steven D'Aprano steve@pearwood.info wrote:
If people want to experiment with chat, you could check out Libra.Chat:
I think there's already #trinity-desktop on Libera Chat.
I also want to mention that I suggested Matrix in the first place because it supports full end to end encryption. I agree with Nik and others that encryption is vital these days so I find what supports it. I use the halogen.city homeserver over matrix.org's as an added guard because the main group behind Matrix is shady as others have said before, but the protocol itself is FOSS. Overall, Matrix is like a newer clone of Jabber (I prefer the old name "Jabber" over XMPP) and is growing in popularity via Element as a client.
It doesn't bring anything new to the table that Jabber already has so maybe its better, but I find Matrix more user-friendly.
I also like that Kopete can be used with Jabber but the OTR encryption plugin isn't readily available for all distros or FreeBSD. Perhaps we can have an encrypted Jabber room for TDE that is easily accessible in Kopete.
On Friday 08 October 2021 20:03:58 Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On October 8, 2021 1:34:11 PM CDT, Steven D'Aprano
steve@pearwood.info wrote:
If people want to experiment with chat, you could check out Libra.Chat:
I think there's already #trinity-desktop on Libera Chat.
I also want to mention that I suggested Matrix in the first place because it supports full end to end encryption. I agree with Nik and others that encryption is vital these days so I find what supports it. I use the halogen.city homeserver over matrix.org's as an added guard because the main group behind Matrix is shady as others have said before, but the protocol itself is FOSS. Overall, Matrix is like a newer clone of Jabber (I prefer the old name "Jabber" over XMPP) and is growing in popularity via Element as a client.
It doesn't bring anything new to the table that Jabber already has so maybe its better, but I find Matrix more user-friendly.
I also like that Kopete can be used with Jabber but the OTR encryption plugin isn't readily available for all distros or FreeBSD. Perhaps we can have an encrypted Jabber room for TDE that is easily accessible in Kopete.
By exploring IRC through Matrix I didn't find any Trinity room in Libera.Chat. However, the legacy Freenode still holds one which you can access from Matrix.
On Friday 08 October 2021 12:11:01 Echedey López Romero via tde-users wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2021 20:03:58 Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On October 8, 2021 1:34:11 PM CDT, Steven D'Aprano
steve@pearwood.info wrote:
If people want to experiment with chat, you could check out Libra.Chat:
I think there's already #trinity-desktop on Libera Chat.
I also want to mention that I suggested Matrix in the first place because it supports full end to end encryption. I agree with Nik and others that encryption is vital these days so I find what supports it. I use the halogen.city homeserver over matrix.org's as an added guard because the main group behind Matrix is shady as others have said before, but the protocol itself is FOSS. Overall, Matrix is like a newer clone of Jabber (I prefer the old name "Jabber" over XMPP) and is growing in popularity via Element as a client.
It doesn't bring anything new to the table that Jabber already has so maybe its better, but I find Matrix more user-friendly.
I also like that Kopete can be used with Jabber but the OTR encryption plugin isn't readily available for all distros or FreeBSD. Perhaps we can have an encrypted Jabber room for TDE that is easily accessible in Kopete.
By exploring IRC through Matrix I didn't find any Trinity room in Libera.Chat. However, the legacy Freenode still holds one which you can access from Matrix.
https://jabber.hot-chilli.net/server-specifications/
Supports all kinds of IRC, group chat, etc. See below.
Bill
see under # Transports,%20Gateways%20and%20Features
MUC (Multi-User Chat) Proxy65 (File Transfer Proxy) HTTP File Upload Pubsub / PEP (Publish-Subscribe / Personal Eventing via Pubsub) Web Presence Battle.net Transport (coming soon…) Discord Transport Facebook Transport Gadu-Gadu Transport Hangouts Transport Instagram Transport IRC Transports XMPP Transports (Jabber-to-Jabber, J2J) Mattermost Transport Groupwise Transport SIPE Transport Skype Transport Steam Transport Telegram Transport Twitter Transport WhatsApp Transport
Bill
On Friday 08 October 2021 12:03:58 Hunter Ellett via tde-users wrote:
On October 8, 2021 1:34:11 PM CDT, Steven D'Aprano steve@pearwood.info
wrote:
If people want to experiment with chat, you could check out Libra.Chat:
I think there's already #trinity-desktop on Libera Chat.
I also want to mention that I suggested Matrix in the first place because it supports full end to end encryption. I agree with Nik and others that encryption is vital these days so I find what supports it. I use the halogen.city homeserver over matrix.org's as an added guard because the main group behind Matrix is shady as others have said before, but the protocol itself is FOSS. Overall, Matrix is like a newer clone of Jabber (I prefer the old name "Jabber" over XMPP) and is growing in popularity via Element as a client.
It doesn't bring anything new to the table that Jabber already has so maybe its better, but I find Matrix more user-friendly.
I also like that Kopete can be used with Jabber but the OTR encryption plugin isn't readily available for all distros or FreeBSD. Perhaps we can have an encrypted Jabber room for TDE that is easily accessible in Kopete.
I am (or rather, was) a big fan of Kopete, back in the KDE3 days of yore. TDE, sadly, has not got kopete-trinity quite ready to be torified. I've tried, but it always crashes; I do keep hoping that it will eventually be updated, upgraded, reinvented, whatever.
In the meanwhile, might I suggest psi-plus? I have been using it with few issues for at least a couple years now. I can get it to use my TDE colors, too, with a bit of finessing and tweaking (but that's another thread, and we already discussed it earlier under tqt3 or something like that). I've also downloaded about a gazillion other Linux chat clients to try out, but haven't got to them yet because psi-plus is really good.
It's also cross-platform, which is good if you are ever forced to use a non-Linux machine. (Say, when the spooks are torturing you by forcing you to listen to the complete recorded works of The Shaggs, or maybe something even worse.) Well, it works for me, for the moment.
Bill
On Friday 08 October 2021 11:07:30 Michael wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2021 12:55:05 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2021 10:50:40 Michael wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2021 12:28:34 pm William Morder via tde-users
wrote:
But for now, at least, I would keep the list, too, unless there is some pressing reason otherwise.
Problems with the mailing list:
- All email addresses become publicly published on the archival site.
- Censorship blocks mails from being submitted to the list.
- Everyone gets off topic emails
- Everyone gets the spam emails submitted
- Since many on the list use [data collecting] mail providers, then all
peoples’ emails on the list gets data collected.
Forums do have their own problems. And my personal dislike of this mailing list, first point, is for me mitigated by the fact I create unique emails for every entity I sign up with, but that is possible for only a very small portion of our members.
Nik’s quote, “Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA” is extremely relevant to the last point.
2 cents, Michael
Agreed on every point. So it's xmpp/jabber, then?
Links Man! What is this jabber thing you speak of?
Truely, I don't care what we use as long as it's easy and removes some of the current issues...
Best, Michael
Sorry, I figured that everybody else here would be much more up-to-date on stuff like this; more than myself, anyway.
There are about a million xmpp/jabber servers out there, and some of them (like these links) allow anonymous registration, free, no details given or data collected, runs over Tor, etc., etc. Also I seem to recall that they have IRC capabilities, and group chat, etc.
https://jabber.hot-chilli.net/ https://www.hot-chilli.net/ These links should lead you to other links for other servers, and they have all kinds of uber-technical stuff, for which I've only scratched the surface.
Somehow we could adapt this, or at least something like this, right? Better than having to reinvent the wheel, it's already there and has been for ages, it's about as secure and private as one can get for free, decentralized, so you don't need to host it yourself ... although having our own jabber server might not be a bad idea.
The problem is, of course, that everything would be "live", not like post an email to the list and wait for a response. If somebody is online, they might answer right in real time. But then, too, it could turn into a food fight or flame war, or beset by trolls, and nothing good ever happens.
It doesn't have to be xmpp/jabber. That might not be quite the right tool for the job; but I am pretty sure there must be something similar in concept that would serve our needs.
Regarding comments of Gene and others: I don't necessarily agree with your politics (at least, not on the surface), and also I want to keep politics and religion and divisiveness out of the group. This place is a nice escape from madness, so let's keep it set apart from whatever we do in the so-called real world. I mean only so that we can keep the spirit going.
And to that end -- whatever our respective beliefs or politics -- we ought to remember that privacy *is* freedom, in that we cannot have real freedom without it. This is one of those "mostly innocent" or "mostly virgin" or "mostly uncorrupted" problems; either you are, or you aren't. To that end, let's find something like xmpp/jabber.
Bill
said Michael:
| Nik’s quote, “Please do not email me anything that you are not | comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA” is extremely relevant to the | last point.
Anything that's not end-to-end encrypted -- *including headers* -- is being harvested by anyone who really wants it. The best we can do right now, alas, is the rule used by burglar-prevention systems: You can't make your home invulnerable, but you can make it a little harder to break in to than the next house over is.
My ISP is a sneak-thief whore outfit. I use a VPN and ProtonMail to confound them, to make getting my information more trouble than it's worth. But I have no illusions that anything I say remains private once it's squirted out by ProtonMail to the addresses of my dimwitted correspondents who take no precautions, who think that gmail or yahoo mail or their own ISPs mail. Someday, maybe soon, there will be a company that loses a lawsuit because its genuis managers thought that accepting gmail's enticements was a good idea.
But until then, we do our best and if we have confidential information to impart we do not do it by email or any other online method if the recipient is a nonserious person. At this point it's as if the phone company announced it would listen in to all calls and capitalize on anything it found that's of use. -- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
On Friday 08 October 2021 14:02:32 dep wrote:
said Michael: | Nik’s quote, “Please do not email me anything that you are not | comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA” is extremely relevant to | the last point.
Anything that's not end-to-end encrypted -- *including headers* -- is being harvested by anyone who really wants it. The best we can do right now, alas, is the rule used by burglar-prevention systems: You can't make your home invulnerable, but you can make it a little harder to break in to than the next house over is.
My ISP is a sneak-thief whore outfit. I use a VPN and ProtonMail to confound them, to make getting my information more trouble than it's worth. But I have no illusions that anything I say remains private once it's squirted out by ProtonMail to the addresses of my dimwitted correspondents who take no precautions, who think that gmail or yahoo mail or their own ISPs mail. Someday, maybe soon, there will be a company that loses a lawsuit because its genuis managers thought that accepting gmail's enticements was a good idea.
That can't happen soon enough for me, it would be an instant game changer. And I've very pointedly let my congress critters know my thoughts on section 230's protection of jerks like FB et all.
But until then, we do our best and if we have confidential information to impart we do not do it by email or any other online method if the recipient is a nonserious person. At this point it's as if the phone company announced it would listen in to all calls and capitalize on anything it found that's of use. -- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/ ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinity desktop.org
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
said Gene Heskett: | On Friday 08 October 2021 14:02:32 dep wrote: | > said Michael: | > | Nik’s quote, “Please do not email me anything that you are not | > | comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA” is extremely relevant to | > | the last point. | > | > Anything that's not end-to-end encrypted -- *including headers* -- is | > being harvested by anyone who really wants it. The best we can do | > right now, alas, is the rule used by burglar-prevention systems: You | > can't make your home invulnerable, but you can make it a little harder | > to break in to than the next house over is. | > | > My ISP is a sneak-thief whore outfit. I use a VPN and ProtonMail to | > confound them, to make getting my information more trouble than it's | > worth. But I have no illusions that anything I say remains private | > once it's squirted out by ProtonMail to the addresses of my dimwitted | > correspondents who take no precautions, who think that gmail or yahoo | > mail or their own ISPs mail. Someday, maybe soon, there will be a | > company that loses a lawsuit because its genuis managers thought that | > accepting gmail's enticements was a good idea. | | That can't happen soon enough for me, it would be an instant game | changer. And I've very pointedly let my congress critters know my | thoughts on section 230's protection of jerks like FB et all.
What's needed is a federal law (and in Europe, Britain, etc., modification of the GDPR) to this:
No person or organization may sell or otherwise distribute information pertaining to its customers or users without the express written consent of those customers or users. The permission may not be assumed ("opt out") but must be specifically chosen ("opt in"). Customers or users who opt in must be provided a complete list of all recipients of their information and all purposes to which it has been put. No person or company may sell or otherwise distribute information received from a data aggregator without the express written consent of the customers or users whose data is to be conveyed, and must be provided a complete list of all recipients of their information and all purposes to which it has been put.
No person or company may deny access to customers or users who refuse to opt in.
Punishment: Violation of this provision will be punishable by a fine of $1 million and/or improsinment of not less than five years nor more than 50 years for each instance of a customer or user whose information was distributed.
That ought to do it.
Oh, and spammers should be imprisoned for life; malicious spammers are subject to the penalty of the latest, most prolonged and painful deaths that science can produce. -- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
No person or organization may sell or otherwise distribute information pertaining to its customers or users without the express written consent of those customers or users.
dep
As I said earlier (I think it was the previous thread), the data ought never to be collected in the first place. There can be no ethical use of another person's private information, when collected by such stealthy means and using disingenous justifications.
If we cannot be sure that our data is not collected, then we must take the next logical step, which is to make it impossible to collect any data at all.
The problem must be dug out at the root. If you wait until it has grown into a noticeable, quantifiable, manipulable *thing* (when the algorithm at last gets us tagged), then it is already too late.
Bill
On Fri, Oct 08, 2021 at 12:32:34PM -0700, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
As I said earlier (I think it was the previous thread), the data ought never to be collected in the first place.
How do you propose that companies bill their customers if they are prohibited from collecting data such as name, address, phone number and services provided?
I work for an electrician. I cannot imagine how we could possibly have customers at all if we can't record their address.
Before I worked for the electrician, I worked for an IT company. Most of the time we could service their systems remotely, and so you might argue that we didn't need to know their physical address or name, only their IP address. But knowing their physical address and name protected us if they failed to pay their bill.
My car mechanic knows my name, my address, phone number, the make and model of my car, and when it is due for a service. He sends me a reminder when it is due for a service, and a warning if there is a recall on the car or its parts. He couldn't do that without collecting my personal data.
There can be no ethical use of another person's private information, when collected by such stealthy means and using disingenous justifications.
I bought some books online yesterday. I prefer bricks and mortar shops, but we're in lockdown here so it was online or nothing. While I was purchasing, the website -- **not** Amazon -- showed me suggestions "Other people who bought this book also purchased...".
Do you think that is unethical?
About twice a year the electrician I work for runs through the list of customers that have solar panels that we installed or serviced, and send them a reminder email that the panels should be cleaned yearly and serviced every few years for best effectiveness.
Do you think that is unethical?
The insidiousness of the online privacy issue is that there is no hard line between acceptable and unacceptable marketing. Its a slipperly slope that starts at the foundations of the free market commerce and ends with Facebook installing a chip in your brain to monitor everything you do, and Google having veto over what you say to your friends down the pub in case you make a "prohibited claim".
https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1446576873694187522
I'm not saying that there is no line that should not be crossed, but such blanket demands as "no data collection at all!" is unrealistic, impractical, and cuts at the root of basic commerce.
Do you think that is unethical?
To pretty much all the examples you cite, I would say YES, unethical.
And to show you just what sort of crank I really am, I am seriously considering getting rid of all technology that doesn't respect my wishes. I realize that this would make it hard to function in modern society, the way most people live in it, at least, but I don't usually need it. I lived without computers at all until I was nearly 30, when I at last got myself a Commodore Amiga; and it would be another 12 years without Internet, which I got in the year 2000.
So it would not change my life much, if I did without it entirely. I could figure out how to adapt, though I might have to move to somewhere remote and totally off-grid.
But that is not addressing your question, and I recognize that. And besides, I am not really a Luddite; I would just prefer to use technology on my own terms, when it serves me. I could give a list of some of my bad experiences, but I imagine we all could make a similar list. And while I entertain fantasies of going off-grid and living like a wild man, I am also considering buying solar panels and a charging station and some other solar-powered or solar-dependent gadgets. I feel that it would be a good idea, just in case, as we all see what's going on in the news.
Likewise, I realize that the business model has changed, and as you point out, the lines are blurred, and everybody is trying to find their way.
My basic point, though, remains the same. When I say that data should not be collected in the first place, I mean of course when it violates our privacy. If I were terribly worried about people watching what I do, about hidden tracking and surveillance and all that, then I would never be able to leave the house.
Also, however, I have experienced the dark side of technology, up-close and personal, with a number of pretty scary events. Who can guess when some offhand, careless remark of mine will get me into big trouble? Our words can be taken out of context and twisted, and make it seem like we said the opposite of what we meant. (And that, unfortunately, is happening a lot nowadays.) Already I have had the men in black show up at my door, no ID or badges or anything, apparently just to harass and intimidate me (since what they told me made no sense); on several occasions I have found myself confronted by police with weapons drawn, merely because I did something that seemed suspicious to somebody. (Carrying heavy bags, full of fruit from the farmer's market, got me followed by police into the library. On another occasion I was nearly shot in the library, a different library, for a bike seat. I could give about a dozen more experiences.) I am not doing anything especially interesting, unless thoughts really can be considered crimes.
If I have got put on somebody's list as *potentially* doing something wrong, or likely to do something wrong in the future, then I would definitely like to keep my data from being collected. Obviously (to myself), they are getting false readings, are misinterpreting what they see, or they are just looking for an excuse. I don't really care the reason; I don't care if it is bad for business. If possible, I would like to keep myself alive for a few more years, and to keep my freedom and privacy intact, so that I can finish something that I have been working on for many years.
I don't know where it crosses over that line, from what is appropriate and what violates my rights and my privacy, but we all know that it happens too much. When you find yourself surrounded by a ring of police with their weapons drawn, you might also reconsider, like myself, just how much is "too much"; maybe you will say, whatever you know about me, it's wrong. When it gets to that point, then you, too, will agree that something is wrong with this picture. And this could be stopped by not collecting that data in the first place. As I say, stop the problem at the root. Don't wait until your data is already collected, then complain that laws and safeguards did not protect you.
Somebody else said (I am paraphrasing from memory) that it's too late, that ship has sailed. Well, that is sort of like saying that it is too late for me to change my bad habits, because I am already pretty much set in my ways, and it would be too much trouble for myself and everybody else to make such big changes.
It might be that I sent unencrypted emails in the past, and still do, or that I allowed my data to be collected when using platforms that I didn't fully understand. But now that I recognize the dangers, I want to break myself of those bad habits.
I still say that it is worth our consideration; that we ought to move in this general direction. And moreover, I believe that in a few years you will find that things take a sharp turn in either one direction (towards more privacy and respect for users) or the other (towards more surveillance, and the disappearance of privacy and freedom). It might be that we are forced into giving up our privacy, completely and for ever, but I hope that I shall not live so long to see it.
Since Nik has offered a tutorial, we might at least take him up on it. Perhaps he can work out the details with us, here and now on the list, and/or post clear instructions on the wiki. Michael was also saying something about creating a shared key for the list, but it may be better for us instead just to do it individually.
Regarding buying books online, by the way: I buy a lot of books. I mean, more than anybody ought to do; there have even been some who express the opinion that I buy more books than is good for me, and where I see a library, they can see only clutter. But anyway, it is nearly all for my own research, not much is just for pleasure. For myself, I would recommend that you try abebooks.com. I search using a torified browser, and only move to a different browser and direct connection when I purchase something. I never look at ads or recommendations. I abandoned Amazon for good, a long time ago already.
Do I understand correctly that some want to trade in the support mailing list for a chat channel? Words cannot express what a spectacularly bad idea that is. Chat works great for gamers, adolescent busybodies, and quick easy questions that can be answered instantly by one person, maybe, but for anything along the lines of a technical discussion it's even worse than Facebook. I sure hope we can put the kibosh on that idea right now.
What's needed is a clear, concise way to follow a discussion thread, either in real time or later in the archive. That bill is filled as well as possible just the way it is, and an ordinary web-based discussion forum is a close second. Anything else is a huge step down in functionality and ease of use for the intended purpose.
On 10/8/21 10:50 AM, Michael wrote:
Problems with the mailing list:
- All email addresses become publicly published on the archival site.
That's easy to fix, just strip senders' email address before sending to the list and archive, which should be being done anyway.
- Censorship blocks mails from being submitted to the list.
Anyone with that problem can simply send from the web form on the list's website. Alternatively, an optional encrypted mail-to address could be added.
- Everyone gets off topic emails
Again, very easy to fix. A few moderators might be a good idea to remind folks to take extended off topic discussions elsewhere.
- Everyone gets the spam emails submitted
It's the internet; deal with it. Better yet, do what worked very well for many years on several Yahoo Groups I ran, before they imploded: New users are automatically put on "moderated" status so their posts require a mod's OK before going to the list. It turns out that most spammers don't bother signing up when they know they'll never get a post on the list. And legitimate new users can easily be taken off "moderated" as soon as they make a legitimate post. Easy peasy, and solves at least 99% of the spam problem.
- Since many on the list use [data collecting] mail providers, then all
peoples’ emails on the list gets data collected.
That's also solved by simply stripping sender email addresses before the message goes to the list.
On Friday 08 October 2021 22.34:33 Dan Youngquist wrote:
Do I understand correctly that some want to trade in the support mailing list for a chat channel? Words cannot express what a spectacularly bad idea that is. Chat works great for gamers, adolescent busybodies, and quick easy questions that can be answered instantly by one person, maybe, but for anything along the lines of a technical discussion it's even worse than Facebook. I sure hope we can put the kibosh on that idea right now.
+1
On Friday 08 October 2021 13:34:33 Dan Youngquist wrote:
Do I understand correctly that some want to trade in the support mailing list for a chat channel? Words cannot express what a spectacularly bad idea that is. Chat works great for gamers, adolescent busybodies, and quick easy questions that can be answered instantly by one person, maybe, but for anything along the lines of a technical discussion it's even worse than Facebook. I sure hope we can put the kibosh on that idea right now.
What's needed is a clear, concise way to follow a discussion thread, either in real time or later in the archive. That bill is filled as well as possible just the way it is, and an ordinary web-based discussion forum is a close second. Anything else is a huge step down in functionality and ease of use for the intended purpose.
On 10/8/21 10:50 AM, Michael wrote:
Problems with the mailing list:
- All email addresses become publicly published on the archival site.
That's easy to fix, just strip senders' email address before sending to the list and archive, which should be being done anyway.
- Censorship blocks mails from being submitted to the list.
Anyone with that problem can simply send from the web form on the list's website. Alternatively, an optional encrypted mail-to address could be added.
- Everyone gets off topic emails
Again, very easy to fix. A few moderators might be a good idea to remind folks to take extended off topic discussions elsewhere.
- Everyone gets the spam emails submitted
It's the internet; deal with it. Better yet, do what worked very well for many years on several Yahoo Groups I ran, before they imploded: New users are automatically put on "moderated" status so their posts require a mod's OK before going to the list. It turns out that most spammers don't bother signing up when they know they'll never get a post on the list. And legitimate new users can easily be taken off "moderated" as soon as they make a legitimate post. Easy peasy, and solves at least 99% of the spam problem.
- Since many on the list use [data collecting] mail providers, then all
peoples’ emails on the list gets data collected.
That's also solved by simply stripping sender email addresses before the message goes to the list.
To quote myself: "It doesn't have to be xmpp/jabber. That might not be quite the right tool for the job; but I am pretty sure there must be something similar in concept that would serve our needs."
My original suggestion was simply that we move toward using encryption for the TDE mailing list. It was Michael's idea to create public/private keys for the list. However, that was rejected as too user-unfriendly for noobs, which may be true.
It seems to me that some people just cannot be content until they have their privacy thoroughly violated and the entire human race is turned into slaves. Resistance is futile! We will all be assimilated!
So what is it to be, then? I don't especially care about what tool we use, but we ought to decide to move toward something better.
Stripping email headers might at least be a good place to start. I can't tell how many email I have accidentally sent to private email addresses (or received them) just because people don't think to check before they hit send.
Bill
On 10/8/21 6:10 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
To quote myself: "It doesn't have to be xmpp/jabber. That might not be quite the right tool for the job; but I am pretty sure there must be something similar in concept that would serve our needs."
My original suggestion was simply that we move toward using encryption for the TDE mailing list. It was Michael's idea to create public/private keys for the list. However, that was rejected as too user-unfriendly for noobs, which may be true.
It seems to me that some people just cannot be content until they have their privacy thoroughly violated and the entire human race is turned into slaves. Resistance is futile! We will all be assimilated!
So what is it to be, then? I don't especially care about what tool we use, but we ought to decide to move toward something better.
Stripping email headers might at least be a good place to start. I can't tell how many email I have accidentally sent to private email addresses (or received them) just because people don't think to check before they hit send.
Bill
I don't have an issue with the current e-mail list. I think it's good to have, plus there is that reference kept online, if someone accidentally deletes an e-mail.
Regarding encryption, I have seen OpenPGP icons in Thunderbird from some of the e-mails coming in from the list, but have no idea how to set that up. I also don't know if there is way to set it up so that it only applies to the e-mail list and not to other e-mails.
On Friday 08 October 2021 05:25:21 pm Edward wrote:
On 10/8/21 6:10 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
To quote myself: "It doesn't have to be xmpp/jabber. That might not be quite the right tool for the job; but I am pretty sure there must be something similar in concept that would serve our needs."
My original suggestion was simply that we move toward using encryption for the TDE mailing list. It was Michael's idea to create public/private keys for the list. However, that was rejected as too user-unfriendly for noobs, which may be true.
It seems to me that some people just cannot be content until they have their privacy thoroughly violated and the entire human race is turned into slaves. Resistance is futile! We will all be assimilated!
So what is it to be, then? I don't especially care about what tool we use, but we ought to decide to move toward something better.
Stripping email headers might at least be a good place to start. I can't tell how many email I have accidentally sent to private email addresses (or received them) just because people don't think to check before they hit send.
Bill
I don't have an issue with the current e-mail list. I think it's good to have, plus there is that reference kept online, if someone accidentally deletes an e-mail.
Regarding encryption, I have seen OpenPGP icons in Thunderbird from some of the e-mails coming in from the list, but have no idea how to set that up. I also don't know if there is way to set it up so that it only applies to the e-mail list and not to other e-mails.
AFAIK it should be possible to make one key pair and share both keys with the whole list, just for use with this list. Everyone sends on the public key and everyone decodes on the private key. Yes, it technically violates the concept of key pairs, but we're just trying to keep the list’s content from being easily [data collected] and [censored] by [automated data collecting] mail providers(/entities).
I’m going to presume that any list encryption is pointless if someone installs the key pair on anything except a local mail client. E.g if someone installs the key pair on their google web mail interface… (I didn’t think of this until later.)
That presumption is why I suggested a forum type of replacement for the user lists. I’m not that up on current ‘stuff’ so pretty much anything that eliminates [automated data collecting] being easily tied to a particular person and/or an entity being able to [censor] participation works for me.
I don’t think there is any sort of perfect solution (maybe a tor onion site, but ugh, that wouldn’t be user friendly at all.).
Best, Michael
PS: I’m using [] around concepts, interchange with any type of ‘bad’ activity you want.
On Friday 08 October 2021 18:20:45 Michael wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2021 05:25:21 pm Edward wrote:
On 10/8/21 6:10 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
To quote myself: "It doesn't have to be xmpp/jabber. That might not be quite the right tool for the job; but I am pretty sure there must be something similar in concept that would serve our needs."
My original suggestion was simply that we move toward using encryption for the TDE mailing list. It was Michael's idea to create public/private keys for the list. However, that was rejected as too user-unfriendly for noobs, which may be true.
It seems to me that some people just cannot be content until they have their privacy thoroughly violated and the entire human race is turned into slaves. Resistance is futile! We will all be assimilated!
So what is it to be, then? I don't especially care about what tool we use, but we ought to decide to move toward something better.
Stripping email headers might at least be a good place to start. I can't tell how many email I have accidentally sent to private email addresses (or received them) just because people don't think to check before they hit send.
Bill
I don't have an issue with the current e-mail list. I think it's good to have, plus there is that reference kept online, if someone accidentally deletes an e-mail.
Regarding encryption, I have seen OpenPGP icons in Thunderbird from some of the e-mails coming in from the list, but have no idea how to set that up. I also don't know if there is way to set it up so that it only applies to the e-mail list and not to other e-mails.
AFAIK it should be possible to make one key pair and share both keys with the whole list, just for use with this list. Everyone sends on the public key and everyone decodes on the private key. Yes, it technically violates the concept of key pairs, but we're just trying to keep the list’s content from being easily [data collected] and [censored] by [automated data collecting] mail providers(/entities).
I’m going to presume that any list encryption is pointless if someone installs the key pair on anything except a local mail client. E.g if someone installs the key pair on their google web mail interface… (I didn’t think of this until later.)
That presumption is why I suggested a forum type of replacement for the user lists. I’m not that up on current ‘stuff’ so pretty much anything that eliminates [automated data collecting] being easily tied to a particular person and/or an entity being able to [censor] participation works for me.
I don’t think there is any sort of perfect solution (maybe a tor onion site, but ugh, that wouldn’t be user friendly at all.).
Best, Michael
PS: I’m using [] around concepts, interchange with any type of ‘bad’ activity you want.
I also sort of expected that we might keep the list, make it totally encrypted, and try to keep it more technical and less off-topic and rambling in nature.
As for the potential problem of shared keys being used for Google webmail interface (thus spoiling whatever benefits of using encryption?), this gives us reason to pause and consider.
As for jabber, I was supposing that we might use some other feature besides simple chat (although that would be possible between individuals). The jabber servers support a lot of other things, including discord, IRC and multi-user chat. (I wonder if it would support Matrix, etc.?)
We might run a few tests to try out different ideas, just to see what might work. And by the way, we don't have to decide right this minute; but it makes sense that we move toward some such solution.
Consider the alternative: that we leave ourselves -- our data, our hasty remarks or cranky weirdness or unpopular beliefs -- just hanging there like ripe fruit, waiting for some bot or spook to harvest them.
Bill
On Friday 08 October 2021 08:43:46 pm William Morder via tde-users wrote:
As for jabber, I was supposing that we might use some other feature besides simple chat (although that would be possible between individuals). The jabber servers support a lot of other things, including discord, IRC and multi-user chat. (I wonder if it would support Matrix, etc.?)
There is a Matrix-Jabber bridge available. I've seen more than a few use it to communicate between the two protocols.
On Friday 08 October 2021 03:34:33 pm Dan Youngquist wrote:
Do I understand correctly that some want to trade in the support mailing list for a chat channel?
I never wanted to trade the mailing list, nor do I think it's going anywhere. I just think having faster, on-the-fly help is beneficial to us. I think the problem is we all disagree on the right platform. To be fair, I don't think any newcomer understands the protocols - whether it is Matrix, Jabber, or IRC. For example, the TDE IRC room stays barren. This already ruins the purpose of trying to have a quicker way to communicate when there's nobody to talk to.
The advantage of mailing list vs forum for me is that I'm "forced" to see the discussion, so I still learn a lot. My 2 cents ...
Gianluca
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, Michael wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2021 05:25:21 pm Edward wrote:
On 10/8/21 6:10 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
To quote myself: "It doesn't have to be xmpp/jabber. That might not be quite the right tool for the job; but I am pretty sure there must be something similar in concept that would serve our needs."
My original suggestion was simply that we move toward using encryption for the TDE mailing list. It was Michael's idea to create public/private keys for the list. However, that was rejected as too user-unfriendly for noobs, which may be true.
It seems to me that some people just cannot be content until they have their privacy thoroughly violated and the entire human race is turned into slaves. Resistance is futile! We will all be assimilated!
So what is it to be, then? I don't especially care about what tool we use, but we ought to decide to move toward something better.
Stripping email headers might at least be a good place to start. I can't tell how many email I have accidentally sent to private email addresses (or received them) just because people don't think to check before they hit send.
Bill
I don't have an issue with the current e-mail list. I think it's good to have, plus there is that reference kept online, if someone accidentally deletes an e-mail.
Regarding encryption, I have seen OpenPGP icons in Thunderbird from some of the e-mails coming in from the list, but have no idea how to set that up. I also don't know if there is way to set it up so that it only applies to the e-mail list and not to other e-mails.
AFAIK it should be possible to make one key pair and share both keys with the whole list, just for use with this list. Everyone sends on the public key and everyone decodes on the private key. Yes, it technically violates the concept of key pairs, but we're just trying to keep the list?s content from being easily [data collected] and [censored] by [automated data collecting] mail providers(/entities).
I?m going to presume that any list encryption is pointless if someone installs the key pair on anything except a local mail client. E.g if someone installs the key pair on their google web mail interface? (I didn?t think of this until later.)
That presumption is why I suggested a forum type of replacement for the user lists. I?m not that up on current ?stuff? so pretty much anything that eliminates [automated data collecting] being easily tied to a particular person and/or an entity being able to [censor] participation works for me.
I don?t think there is any sort of perfect solution (maybe a tor onion site, but ugh, that wouldn?t be user friendly at all.).
Best, Michael
PS: I?m using [] around concepts, interchange with any type of ?bad? activity you want. ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
----------------------------------------------------- Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A. -----------------------------------------------------
Anno domini 18:45:48 Fri, 8 Oct 2021 -0700 (PDT) Gianluca Interlandi scripsit:
The advantage of mailing list vs forum for me is that I'm "forced" to see the discussion, so I still learn a lot. My 2 cents ...
+1
And some more things to consider: - realtime chat is nice, but in reality it only works when you live in ~ the same timezone and have the chat client running. IRC is as good or bas as jabber, but IMO it's not much used by the lists audience. - how to meaningful archive that? - forums are nice, but (aside from phpbb) forum software quit a bloat on the client side nowadays and optimized for "mobile devices" aka mousecinemas. And you have to activly visit them. - lots of different services scatter information. - my intention was not to start a discussion on how to get rid of the mailinglist, but to get mails to the list past local censorship.
Nik
Gianluca
On Fri, 8 Oct 2021, Michael wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2021 05:25:21 pm Edward wrote:
On 10/8/21 6:10 PM, William Morder via tde-users wrote:
To quote myself: "It doesn't have to be xmpp/jabber. That might not be quite the right tool for the job; but I am pretty sure there must be something similar in concept that would serve our needs."
My original suggestion was simply that we move toward using encryption for the TDE mailing list. It was Michael's idea to create public/private keys for the list. However, that was rejected as too user-unfriendly for noobs, which may be true.
It seems to me that some people just cannot be content until they have their privacy thoroughly violated and the entire human race is turned into slaves. Resistance is futile! We will all be assimilated!
So what is it to be, then? I don't especially care about what tool we use, but we ought to decide to move toward something better.
Stripping email headers might at least be a good place to start. I can't tell how many email I have accidentally sent to private email addresses (or received them) just because people don't think to check before they hit send.
Bill
I don't have an issue with the current e-mail list. I think it's good to have, plus there is that reference kept online, if someone accidentally deletes an e-mail.
Regarding encryption, I have seen OpenPGP icons in Thunderbird from some of the e-mails coming in from the list, but have no idea how to set that up. I also don't know if there is way to set it up so that it only applies to the e-mail list and not to other e-mails.
AFAIK it should be possible to make one key pair and share both keys with the whole list, just for use with this list. Everyone sends on the public key and everyone decodes on the private key. Yes, it technically violates the concept of key pairs, but we're just trying to keep the list?s content from being easily [data collected] and [censored] by [automated data collecting] mail providers(/entities).
I?m going to presume that any list encryption is pointless if someone installs the key pair on anything except a local mail client. E.g if someone installs the key pair on their google web mail interface? (I didn?t think of this until later.)
That presumption is why I suggested a forum type of replacement for the user lists. I?m not that up on current ?stuff? so pretty much anything that eliminates [automated data collecting] being easily tied to a particular person and/or an entity being able to [censor] participation works for me.
I don?t think there is any sort of perfect solution (maybe a tor onion site, but ugh, that wouldn?t be user friendly at all.).
Best, Michael
PS: I?m using [] around concepts, interchange with any type of ?bad? activity you want. ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
Gianluca Interlandi, PhD gianluca@u.washington.edu +1 (206) 685 4435 http://gianluca.today/
Department of Bioengineering University of Washington, Seattle WA U.S.A.
tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
And some more things to consider:
- realtime chat is nice, but in reality it only works when you live in ~
the same timezone and have the chat client running.
That is, unless your correspondents happen to be habitual night owls, such as myself.
- my intention was not to start a discussion on how to get rid of the
mailinglist, but to get mails to the list past local censorship.
Nik
I actually was fine to stick with the mailing list, only to move toward encryption (either individually or as a group). Others made suggestions, and I added to them.
The simplest thing would be for those of us who want to use encryption, to do so, and to learn how if necessary (Gene and myself, for example). Then we don't need to change the list.
I still think that something on the order of a forum, or to develop some kind of IRC group, or to use jabber/xmpp on the side, would be good to supplement the list. I don't believe that I myself ever said anything about getting rid of the mailing list, only to move toward encryption, or some other tools, in order to protect our privacy better than we do now.
Bill
Anno domini 2021 Fri, 8 Oct 20:20:45 -0500 Michael scripsit:
On Friday 08 October 2021 05:25:21 pm Edward wrote:
[...]
AFAIK it should be possible to make one key pair and share both keys with the whole list, just for use with this list. Everyone sends on the public key and everyone decodes on the private key. Yes, it technically violates the concept of key pairs, but we're just trying to keep the list’s content from being easily [data collected] and [censored] by [automated data collecting] mail providers(/entities).
I’m going to presume that any list encryption is pointless if someone installs the key pair on anything except a local mail client. E.g if someone installs the key pair on their google web mail interface… (I didn’t think of this until later.)
That presumption is why I suggested a forum type of replacement for the user lists. I’m not that up on current ‘stuff’ so pretty much anything that eliminates [automated data collecting] being easily tied to a particular person and/or an entity being able to [censor] participation works for me.
I don’t think there is any sort of perfect solution (maybe a tor onion site, but ugh, that wouldn’t be user friendly at all.).
The header is not encrypted, it's just the message body. So all metadata analysis is still possible with an encrypted mailinglist. If everybody uses kmail that's easy to fix with a filter - if you look at my filter that I posted some days ago: if the mail is encrypted and comes from e.g. "users-encrypted@trinitydesktop.org", then replace it with the decrypted body. That body vcontains (violating the standard) the whole message including headers. On the sending side (mailinglist), just replace the header with a minimal version and random subject (e.g. date+timestamp).
Making a shared private/public keypair for the list is used the othe way round is no problem, as changing the private part will have no effect. It's also convenient, as all users can use the public key to send encrypted mail to the list. Again, kmail can handle this this transparent for the user.
Oh, anybody needs a tutorial?
Nik
Best, Michael
PS: I’m using [] around concepts, interchange with any type of ‘bad’ activity you want. ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
On Saturday 09 October 2021 02:26:02 Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
Anno domini 2021 Fri, 8 Oct 20:20:45 -0500
Michael scripsit:
On Friday 08 October 2021 05:25:21 pm Edward wrote:
[...]
AFAIK it should be possible to make one key pair and share both keys with the whole list, just for use with this list. Everyone sends on the public key and everyone decodes on the private key. Yes, it technically violates the concept of key pairs, but we're just trying to keep the list’s content from being easily [data collected] and [censored] by [automated data collecting] mail providers(/entities).
I’m going to presume that any list encryption is pointless if someone installs the key pair on anything except a local mail client. E.g if someone installs the key pair on their google web mail interface… (I didn’t think of this until later.)
That presumption is why I suggested a forum type of replacement for the user lists. I’m not that up on current ‘stuff’ so pretty much anything that eliminates [automated data collecting] being easily tied to a particular person and/or an entity being able to [censor] participation works for me.
I don’t think there is any sort of perfect solution (maybe a tor onion site, but ugh, that wouldn’t be user friendly at all.).
The header is not encrypted, it's just the message body. So all metadata analysis is still possible with an encrypted mailinglist. If everybody uses kmail that's easy to fix with a filter - if you look at my filter that I posted some days ago: if the mail is encrypted and comes from e.g. "users-encrypted@trinitydesktop.org", then replace it with the decrypted body. That body vcontains (violating the standard) the whole message including headers. On the sending side (mailinglist), just replace the header with a minimal version and random subject (e.g. date+timestamp).
Making a shared private/public keypair for the list is used the othe way round is no problem, as changing the private part will have no effect. It's also convenient, as all users can use the public key to send encrypted mail to the list. Again, kmail can handle this this transparent for the user.
Oh, anybody needs a tutorial?
Yes Nik.
Nik
Best, Michael
PS: I’m using [] around concepts, interchange with any type of ‘bad’ activity you want. ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trini tydesktop.org
Cheers, Gene Heskett.
On 10/8/21 3:25 PM, Edward wrote:
Regarding encryption, I have seen OpenPGP icons in Thunderbird from some of the e-mails coming in from the list, but have no idea how to set that up. I also don't know if there is way to set it up so that it only applies to the e-mail list and not to other e-mails.
There's a Thunderbird addon called Enigmail that makes configuration and use almost automatic.
I think the idea of requiring encryption on a tech support mailing list is completely ludicrous. I really don't get why anyone would think it's a good idea. It would accomplish nothing except create a huge barrier to newcomers, and make us look like a bunch of elitist snobs who think we're too good to rub shoulders with the unwashed masses. But if that and no functional support for newcomers to TDE are what you're after, by all means knock yourselves out.
The only possible advantage to encryption is if there's some kind of intentional or unintentional block that's keeping someone, somewhere from emailing to the list address. But as I pointed out before, that problem is easily solved by web-based posting, which is already in place.
Forgive my saying so, but this is all getting a little nutty. If we're worried about our email addresses becoming discoverable, that ship sailed a long time ago. If we're worried about spam -- well that's not been a huge problem. KMail has a delete function, and I suppose that other mail clients do as well. If we wish to write freely about things that are non-technical, then forming another list in another place, as encrypted as anyone wants, could be done. And having a chat channel, if someone wanted to set it up, might be fun.
Making imagined perfect the enemy of actual good, though, is not likely to produce anything.
dep Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
said Dan Youngquist:
| There's a Thunderbird addon called Enigmail that makes configuration and | use almost automatic.
Something like that for KMail would actually be pretty useful; not for the list in particular because, you're right, encrypting a public tech support mailing list is crazy, but because it would just be a useful feature, and anything that promotes online privacy, as that would, is a good thing to have. -- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/
Anno domini 2021 Sat, 09 Oct 02:19:12 +0000 dep scripsit:
said Dan Youngquist:
| There's a Thunderbird addon called Enigmail that makes configuration and | use almost automatic.
Something like that for KMail would actually be pretty useful; not for the list in particular because, you're right, encrypting a public tech support mailing list is crazy, but because it would just be a useful feature, and anything that promotes online privacy, as that would, is a good thing to have.
It's built into kmail since the last decade, and it's transparent. The key management part is done by "kgpg" - nice gui, just start it, create your private/public key pair, publish the public key and be happy. kmail even asks you if it should encrypt a mail going to recepient with known public key.
Nik
-- dep
Pictures: http://www.ipernity.com/doc/depscribe/album Column: https://ofb.biz/author/dep/ ____________________________________________________ tde-users mailing list -- users@trinitydesktop.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@trinitydesktop.org Web mail archive available at https://mail.trinitydesktop.org/mailman3/hyperkitty/list/users@trinitydeskto...
I'm still a little puzzled. How does this differ from the Riot Matrix application that some of us might already have?
Element *is* Riot. Riot was rebranded to Element.
It was a little worrisome to see this on the Element page: "Element is incredibly proud to build in the open, sharing almost all of our own code with everyone." Almost? -- dep
I don't know what they mean because the Element client is fully open-source. In fact, there are forks of Element such as SchildiChat.
Matrix is not like Telegram where the protocol is closed-source but the client is FOSS. Matrix and all the known clients for it are FOSS.
On Thursday 07 October 2021 11:48:35 am Michael wrote:
And how you envision it being able to replace the TDE mailing lists? (<= I’m assuming that’s what you’re meaning.)
Thanks, Michael
I meant to answer this in my last email - I don't think my Matrix room should replace the TDE mailing list at all, but I think its a better or more "hip" solution to the barren IRC channel. Maybe it won't reach many more users but any little bit of user-friendliness helps, and Element is really friendly (its a lot like Discord).
-
Dan Youngquist -
dep -
Dr. Nikolaus Klepp -
Echedey López Romero -
Edward -
Gene Heskett -
Gianluca Interlandi -
Hunter Ellett -
Marvin Jones -
Michael -
Steven D'Aprano -
Thierry de Coulon -
William Morder