31 Aug
2022
31 Aug
'22
8:13 p.m.
Hi All,
As most of you know, I donate a mirror to TDE. It costs ~USD100 / year [1].
Mine has ~18 months left, but it’s hard drive isn’t really big enough for
what Slávek wants/needs long term. (It’s also completely overkill in terms
of memory/cpu.)
I recently saw an article about NAT VPSes [2] whose prices are under $10 /
year [3]. These, with some tinkering, can be setup to tunnel traffic to a
home box (which could be running a VM to act as a TDE mirror).
VM’s can be ‘packaged’ such that they are one click imports (at least on
Oracle VirtualBox). That would allow Slávek to be able to create it once and
then any one of us could install it locally.
My graphics skills suckage, but something like:
mirror.ppa.trinitydesktop.org >
NAT VPS >
Your public IP (from ISP) >
[Your router/NAT/'ISP thingy'] >
Your home server >
VM (on your home server)
I’ve used SSH tunnels for 20+ years, but we’d probably need Slávek or someone
with more knowledge of traffic tunneling than me, to help with the full setup
(as I think iptables is probably a better solution?).
# # #
Okay, why?
1) I think several of us have existing home hardware that has a spare ~2TB,
can run a 1CPU/2GB RAM VM, and runs 24/7 already.
2) At ~$5 per year it’d be a very cheap way for TDE to have multiple mirrors
that have the full space available Slávek wants.
Thoughts?
And a show of hands of people who’d provide a TDE mirror under something like
this?
Best All,
Michael
[1]
Current offers are roughly 90/yr for VPSes w/ 48GB RAM, 720GB NVMe, 12 vCPU,
24TB transfer (triennial billing).
https://www.ssdnodes.com/sale/aug-2022-offers/
[2]
https://lowendbox.com/blog/what-the-heck-is-a-nat-vps-anyway/
[3]
One offer: $4/year
https://lowendtalk.com/discussion/180327/clearance-sale-nat-vps-at-cost-new…
31 Aug
31 Aug
10 p.m.
On Wed August 31 2022 13:13:15 Michael wrote:
Thoughts?
Hi Michael,
Here you go:
(1) I operate a VPS which is mostly used as a TDE mirror. It
has 4GB RAM and 800GB disk space. Regular price is $138.36
but discounts are often available and I got this with a 50%
discount for $69.18/annum which is reasonable. It's probably
the third VPS I've used for a TDE mirror - every few years I
search for better bargains.
(2) Separately and unrelated to TDE another VPS I operate has a
forwarding mechanism such as you describe to a low-traffic
home server. I use a combination of openVPN, iptables and
proxy ARP - and an additional public IP. You might do it
without renting an additional public IP but it would be
complicated and require use of non-standard ports for
conflicting services.
(3) The disadvantage to home-based mirrors is that every user
download is an upload over your home bandwidth which is often
limited. If I tried to run a mirror at home it would kill
our streaming (Roku) but others may have more home bandwidth
than we do.
--Mike
1 Sep
1 Sep
1:39 a.m.
On 2022/09/01 07:00 AM, Mike Bird wrote:
On Wed August 31 2022 13:13:15 Michael wrote:
A different alternative could be that we finally move forward with some sort of TDE
organization (we had some talks
about this long ago), then we can properly setup a donation link (which currently still
goes to Tim) and then use them
to setup additional VPS to act as mirrors or extra developer tools.
Cheers
Michele
Thoughts?
Hi Michael,
Here you go:
(1) I operate a VPS which is mostly used as a TDE mirror. It
has 4GB RAM and 800GB disk space. Regular price is $138.36
but discounts are often available and I got this with a 50%
discount for $69.18/annum which is reasonable. It's probably
the third VPS I've used for a TDE mirror - every few years I
search for better bargains.
(2) Separately and unrelated to TDE another VPS I operate has a
forwarding mechanism such as you describe to a low-traffic
home server. I use a combination of openVPN, iptables and
proxy ARP - and an additional public IP. You might do it
without renting an additional public IP but it would be
complicated and require use of non-standard ports for
conflicting services.
(3) The disadvantage to home-based mirrors is that every user
download is an upload over your home bandwidth which is often
limited. If I tried to run a mirror at home it would kill
our streaming (Roku) but others may have more home bandwidth
than we do.
--Mike
2 Sep
2 Sep
12:23 a.m.
On Thursday 01 of September 2022 00:00:48 Mike Bird wrote:
On Wed August 31 2022 13:13:15 Michael wrote:
You have our thanks for providing the primary mirror as well as overseeing
the other mirrors.
Thoughts?
Hi Michael,
Here you go:
(1) I operate a VPS which is mostly used as a TDE mirror. It
has 4GB RAM and 800GB disk space. Regular price is $138.36
but discounts are often available and I got this with a 50%
discount for $69.18/annum which is reasonable. It's probably
the third VPS I've used for a TDE mirror - every few years I
search for better bargains.
(2) Separately and unrelated to TDE another VPS I
operate has a
forwarding mechanism such as you describe to a low-traffic
home server. I use a combination of openVPN, iptables and
proxy ARP - and an additional public IP. You might do it
without renting an additional public IP but it would be
complicated and require use of non-standard ports for
conflicting services.
To provide services within one public address, it would be possible to use
a VPN connection (either the mentioned OpenVPN or Wireguard, which seems
to be a very promising alternative) and do DNAT for ports of the required
services to the home server.
(3) The disadvantage to home-based mirrors is that
every user
download is an upload over your home bandwidth which is often
limited. If I tried to run a mirror at home it would kill
our streaming (Roku) but others may have more home bandwidth
than we do.
This is exactly the concern I would have with using "home mirrors". There
are many home connections that are asymmetric => large incoming bandwidth,
small outgoing. Providing a mirror consumes outgoing bandwidth, so it can
cause problems on such connections.
However, I have an idea how the threat of bandwidth overload could be
solved for accesses using http / https. If ports 80 / 443 were not DNAT to
the home server, but served by a reverse proxy on the VPS (for example
using apache, nginx or lighttpd), file caching could be used there, for
example using squid-deb-proxy. This allows frequently used files to be
served from the cache without having to download them again from the home
server, and at the same time gives the ability to control the volume of
files that will be stored on the VPS. This would require more effort to set
up, but it could work.
In any case, it seems to be an effective solution to move forward with the
creation of a TDE organization so that we can start receiving and manage
donations and thus invest in infrastructure, as Michele mentioned. I am
aware that this is a task that is waiting for me for a long time :(
--Mike
____________________________________________________
Cheers
--
Slávek
3:45 a.m.
On Thursday 01 September 2022 07:23:38 pm Slávek Banko wrote:
Ah cool, so it's at least a fairly known thing to do.
The minimum Internet connection where I’m at is 300 Mbps (symmetrical). But,
since no one replied to my question, I’m not real sure anyone on this list is
even interested in spending $5 per year? Or has a home system that’s on
24/7?
IDK. This only seems worthwhile if people are willing to do it. I would, but
going through all the setup work is hardly worthwhile for just one person.
On Thursday 01 of September 2022 00:00:48 Mike Bird
wrote:
My thanks as well!
On Wed August 31 2022 13:13:15 Michael wrote:
You have our thanks for providing the primary mirror as well as overseeing
the other mirrors. Thoughts?
Hi Michael,
Here you go:
(1) I operate a VPS which is mostly used as a TDE mirror. It
has 4GB RAM and 800GB disk space. Regular price is $138.36
but discounts are often available and I got this with a 50%
discount for $69.18/annum which is reasonable. It's probably
the third VPS I've used for a TDE mirror - every few years I
search for better bargains. (2) Separately
and unrelated to TDE another VPS I operate has a
forwarding mechanism such as you describe to a low-traffic
home server. I use a combination of openVPN, iptables and
proxy ARP - and an additional public IP. You might do it
without renting an additional public IP but it would be
complicated and require use of non-standard ports for
conflicting services.
To provide services within one public address, it would be possible to use
a VPN connection (either the mentioned OpenVPN or Wireguard, which seems
to be a very promising alternative) and do DNAT for ports of the required
services to the home server. (3) The
disadvantage to home-based mirrors is that every user
download is an upload over your home bandwidth which is often
limited. If I tried to run a mirror at home it would kill
our streaming (Roku) but others may have more home bandwidth
than we do.
This is exactly the concern I would have with using "home mirrors". There
are many home connections that are asymmetric => large incoming bandwidth,
small outgoing. Providing a mirror consumes outgoing bandwidth, so it can
cause problems on such connections. However, I have an idea how the threat of bandwidth
overload could be
solved for accesses using http / https. If ports 80 / 443 were not DNAT to
the home server, but served by a reverse proxy on the VPS (for example
using apache, nginx or lighttpd), file caching could be used there, for
example using squid-deb-proxy. This allows frequently used files to be
served from the cache without having to download them again from the home
server, and at the same time gives the ability to control the volume of
files that will be stored on the VPS. This would require more effort to set
up, but it could work.
I’ve not done any real research on these, but this is the spec of the NAT VPS
I saw:
4GB SSD Disk
256MB DDR4 RAM
1 vCPU (Fair Use)
/80 IPv6 + 20 IPv4 ports
500GB transfer @ 1Gbps; then unlimited at reduced speed
Can that even run the software needed to do any caching? (My original thought
was just to be a straight pipe, since I was assuming whoever wanted to do it
would already have adequate home bandwidth.)
If we get past the planning stage I was going to talk with the hosting company
and tell what we were going to do, that way we’d not be in violation of their
TOS.
In any case, it seems to be an effective solution to
move forward with the
creation of a TDE organization so that we can start receiving and manage
donations and thus invest in infrastructure, as Michele mentioned. I am
aware that this is a task that is waiting for me for a long time :(
{follow up tomorrow}
Best,
Michael
11:59 a.m.
On Thu, 1 Sep 2022 22:45:51 -0500
Michael <mb_trinity_desktop(a)inet-design.com> wrote:
The minimum Internet connection where I’m at is 300
Mbps (symmetrical). But,
since no one replied to my question, I’m not real sure anyone on this list is
even interested in spending $5 per year? Or has a home system that’s on
24/7?
You may be overestimating other people's connections. Mine is a cable
connection that, in practice, gets no more than 30Mbps down, is probably
not symmetrical (I'm not the person who gets the bills, so I've never seen
the specifications), and is shared with the rest of the household.
I'd be willing to pitch in some money for hosting a mirror in the cloud or
at a data center (if we can get the financials sorted out), but hosting anything
here just isn't going to happen.
E. Liddell
10:51 p.m.
On Friday 02 September 2022 04:59:37 E. Liddell wrote:
On Thu, 1 Sep 2022 22:45:51 -0500
Michael <mb_trinity_desktop(a)inet-design.com> wrote:
I am in a different boat, but it looks about the same as what E describes.
Sometimes, indeed, I can get amazing speeds for download (nearly 2 mbps), but
uploads are not so fast.
Also, it depends a lot on the time of day. Late at night, my machine is the
fastest on the block; during daytime hours, when everybody and their dogs are
online, it can slow to a trickle, and I get bumped offline sporadically, or
sometimes even constantly, to the point where I just go offline and do
something else.
Likewise, I am willing to donate, if it means that I get to keep using TDE as
my desktop. (Seems like a good investment.) But we keep getting bogged down
just about at this same point.
The best solution would seem to be, set up some kind of legal entity: a
company, a non-profit, an org, to which we can all contribute as we are able,
according to our talents or financial means.
One of those obstacles is just that we would have to choose somewhere to have
a physical presence in the so-called real world; and that means that we would
become subject to local laws and regulations, taxes and fees and fines and
what-not.
If we go that route, then we need to choose the place wisely. Is there any
nation that is run by enlightened sages?
Bill
The minimum Internet connection where I’m at is
300 Mbps (symmetrical).
But, since no one replied to my question, I’m not real sure anyone on
this list is even interested in spending $5 per year? Or has a home
system that’s on 24/7?
You may be overestimating other people's connections. Mine is a cable
connection that, in practice, gets no more than 30Mbps down, is probably
not symmetrical (I'm not the person who gets the bills, so I've never seen
the specifications), and is shared with the rest of the household.
I'd be willing to pitch in some money for hosting a mirror in the cloud or
at a data center (if we can get the financials sorted out), but hosting
anything here just isn't going to happen.
E. Liddell
3 Sep
3 Sep
2:02 a.m.
On Thursday 01 September 2022 07:23:38 pm Slávek Banko
wrote:
> In any case, it seems to be an effective solution to move forward with
> the creation of a TDE organization so that we can start receiving and
> manage donations and thus invest in infrastructure, as Michele mentioned.
> I am aware that this is a task that is waiting for me for a long time :(
The last time I donated dollars was 5+ years ago and I never got any sort of
response when I did it. The money did debit from PayPal, but for all I know
it went into an account Tim abandoned and he never even received it.
Per the last time we all discussed this, a US non-profit was going to cost
something like US $1,500(ish) to setup and an unknown amount per year in
overhead. So, the USA isn’t an ideal location.
My thoughts, if Slávek has his own company, then just pay Slávek directly and
let him pay what/who he needs to pay under that umbrella.
If I still had my full C Corp, I’d offer the same, but I dropped it and am now
under a Sole Proprietorship. One of the downsides to Sole Proprietorship is
that one of the US taxes is on your gross income, so nope, not going to pay
taxes on monies that are just passing through...
The easiest at this point is to just pay our dev’s directly, but that can get
ugly and create equity issues.
At least with the NAT VPS front end to home TDE mirrors, someone other than
the home mirror person can pay for the VPS.
2 cents,
Michael
4:37 a.m.
Hello,
As everyone knows I donate space to a mirror, luckily I pay $95 for a dedicated server
(Its OVH). Has 2x4TB HDD's and 128GB of RAM. I actually also provide a mirror for
AlmaLinux, so I get some throughput.
I didnt even know VPS's even hit the same as I pay for a dedi, blows my mind lol.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Bird" <mgb-trinity(a)yosemite.net>
To: users(a)trinitydesktop.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2022 3:00:48 PM
Subject: [tde-users] Re: TDE Mirrors for Everyone?
On Wed August 31 2022 13:13:15 Michael wrote:
Thoughts?
Hi Michael,
Here you go:
(1) I operate a VPS which is mostly used as a TDE mirror. It
has 4GB RAM and 800GB disk space. Regular price is $138.36
but discounts are often available and I got this with a 50%
discount for $69.18/annum which is reasonable. It's probably
the third VPS I've used for a TDE mirror - every few years I
search for better bargains.
(2) Separately and unrelated to TDE another VPS I operate has a
forwarding mechanism such as you describe to a low-traffic
home server. I use a combination of openVPN, iptables and
proxy ARP - and an additional public IP. You might do it
without renting an additional public IP but it would be
complicated and require use of non-standard ports for
conflicting services.
(3) The disadvantage to home-based mirrors is that every user
download is an upload over your home bandwidth which is often
limited. If I tried to run a mirror at home it would kill
our streaming (Roku) but others may have more home bandwidth
than we do.
--Mike
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609
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8 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
E. Liddell -
Michael -
Michael J. Manley -
Michele Calgaro -
Mike Bird -
Slávek Banko -
William Morder